Religious beliefs are a topic that is often raised on these boards, mostly with a negative slant

Given what goes on in many circles, that's understandable but also unfair

As a person of faith, I have just a few things to air out

1. The Bible is unlike many other texts, but at the same time it's similar to many other texts

2. If you're looking at it as an ancient, irrelevant text - you are going to find that point of view

3. If you're looking for sex, violence and patriarchy - you are going to find them

4. But if you're looking for applicable life lessons - you will find them

5. If you're looking for peace and love - you will find them

I think we're capable of having a respectful discourse on this topic.  And, who knows, some learning just might happen.

2 hours ago, Dan38 said:

  You need to read a bit more history. There were no pagan martyrs after Constantine made Christianity a state religion. Was there persecution ? Yes but it was not against people as much as it was against temples. Temples were either destroyed outright or made into Churches. There was a capital punishment against pagans but no documentation exists that it was ever carried out and considering the morals of Christianity it is highly unlikely it ever was. The Romans wrote EVERYTHING down.

 

 No atheist, no agnostic and no scientist can prove there is no God.  Believers on the other hand believe they have enough evidence to prove there is a God.

That's as simple as I can put it. I wish no ill will on atheists or believers.

I cannot find the source(s) of my statement, so you may well be right.

2 hours ago, Dan38 said:

  You need to read a bit more history. There were no pagan martyrs after Constantine made Christianity a state religion. 

Maybe not Pagans after 313 AD, but the persecution of minorities after the reformation, was beyond the pale.

On 2023-06-24 at 10:15 AM, Mark H. said:

Maybe not Pagans after 313 AD, but the persecution of minorities after the reformation, was beyond the pale.

 Very true and all sides were equally guilty.

 The problem we need to solve is to not blame an institution for the mistakes of a few humans. By and large all religions are based on peace and love, not on control as one previous poster claims. Does it look like control at some stages ? Definitely ! But we come back to immoral humans forcing others again, not the institution. Seldom does an institution try to eradicate or dominate another. It does happen but it is rare. Almost always in war religion is invoked as an afterthought to justify some atrocity as another poster stated earlier.

 This is a good topic and with a good knowledge of history we can all learn from this discussion. There are so many false accusations against religion that we may need to see the truth instead of the myth.

On 2023-06-23 at 9:44 AM, Mark H. said:

Which is the main reason why there so many churches today.  The original intent of the reformation, was to get back to what the scriptures were really teaching.  But everything was already so corrupt, that it only took hold in very small groups.

  Henry the 8th was refused the right to divorce by the Pope and started his own religion. He didn't give a hoot about whether or not the scriptures were correct. He changed them later  to accommodate his infidelity.

 Martin Luther did want change but he attacked the Church in Rome as the fault and not the guilty individuals. He was excommunicated. He did not believe in what was accepted knowledge for hundreds of years. He wanted everyone to march to his drummer. Luther was also a very heavy beer drinker. We don't hear that fact mentioned too much, do we ?

 The resulting splinter groups could all make up their own minds as to what Jesus tried to tell us and the result is today that we have over 8000 sects of Protestantism. Apparently no one has got it right yet !

1 hour ago, Dan38 said:

  Henry the 8th was refused the right to divorce by the Pope and started his own religion. He didn't give a hoot about whether or not the scriptures were correct. He changed them later  to accommodate his infidelity.

 Martin Luther did want change but he attacked the Church in Rome as the fault and not the guilty individuals. He was excommunicated. He did not believe in what was accepted knowledge for hundreds of years. He wanted everyone to march to his drummer. Luther was also a very heavy beer drinker. We don't hear that fact mentioned too much, do we ?

 The resulting splinter groups could all make up their own minds as to what Jesus tried to tell us and the result is today that we have over 8000 sects of Protestantism. Apparently no one has got it right yet !

You are correct about Henry the 8th except for one detail. His secession from the Catholic church was not about wanting newer playmates but about producing a male heir to the throne. Did you know that the "fish on Friday" thingie is a part of that?

Luther did not want a schism but several local Prussian lords wanted out of the Holy Roman Empire and saw Luther as a means to an end. So they promoted him to be the head of the parade, even though he wasn't happy at first. He did grow fond of the prestige and power, though.

3 hours ago, Dan38 said:

The problem we need to solve is to not blame an institution for the mistakes of a few humans.

how does one figure out what is human and what is not?

2 hours ago, Dan38 said:

 Martin Luther did want change but he attacked the Church in Rome as the fault and not the guilty individuals. He was excommunicated. He did not believe in what was accepted knowledge for hundreds of years. He wanted everyone to march to his drummer. Luther was also a very heavy beer drinker. We don't hear that fact mentioned too much, do we ?

 The resulting splinter groups could all make up their own minds as to what Jesus tried to tell us and the result is today that we have over 8000 sects of Protestantism. Apparently no one has got it right yet !

Not quite.  The church as a whole was guilty of the practice of selling indulgences, not just corrupt individuals. Luther got many things wrong - but he was right about that one enormously prevalent fact.

Beside his alcohol consumption, he was also extremely anti-semetic, among other thigs we could mention

My people stem from a group (Anabaptist) that rejected all of Luther's ideas (or the lack of them)

 

47 minutes ago, Tracker said:

You are correct about Henry the 8th except for one detail. His secession from the Catholic church was not about wanting newer playmates but about producing a male heir to the throne. Did you know that the "fish on Friday" thingie is a part of that?

Luther did not want a schism but several local Prussian lords wanted out of the Holy Roman Empire and saw Luther as a means to an end. So they promoted him to be the head of the parade, even though he wasn't happy at first. He did grow fond of the prestige and power, though.

 I was trying to be concise but you are right, although Henry's infidelity was about getting a male heir so it's really the same. Even if Henry did have a son, history has him as having a wandering eye.

 Luther's prestige and power gave him more time to drink beer. He liked that too.

 

My whole point is that although Henry and Martin had ulterior motives no one denounces the Anglican faith or the Lutheran faith based solely on the actions of a few people. Yes there whackos out there but thankfully few and far between.

 Through all the criticism of the Catholic Church it is seldom pointed out that the Church feeds over one million starving people a day. Think about that... These are the kinds of facts and stories that should be presented along with the negative crap we all read.

 

 Tracker, are you a student of Latin ?

2 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

Not quite.  The church as a whole was guilty of the practice of selling indulgences, not just corrupt individuals. Luther got many things wrong - but he was right about that one enormously prevalent fact.

Beside his alcohol consumption, he was also extremely anti-semetic, among other thigs we could mention

My people stem from a group (Anabaptist) that rejected all of Luther's ideas (or the lack of them)

 

 I know about the indulgences but what i have read is for the most part indulgences were used for good like helping the poor. Luther didn't like seeing corrupt Bishop's and the odd bad Pope use the money for themselves. The indulgences were only a part of his rejection of the church.

10 minutes ago, Mark F said:

how does one figure out what is human and what is not?

 If a hospital found out a doctor had abused a patient would you go to that hospital if needed or would you boycott it on the actions of one person ? You must know that the hospital never told the doctor to abuse the patient and didn't condone it. So why blame the institution for the wrongs done by one person ?

 We have to be vigilant for the truth.

9 minutes ago, Dan38 said:

 I know about the indulgences but what i have read is for the most part indulgences were used for good like helping the poor. Luther didn't like seeing corrupt Bishop's and the odd bad Pope use the money for themselves. The indulgences were only a part of his rejection of the church.

To an extent - but they were also used to fund all those lavish churches and cathedrals - they were definitely Luther's biggest grievance against the church.

2 hours ago, Dan38 said:

 If a hospital found out a doctor had abused a patient would you go to that hospital if needed or would you boycott it on the actions of one person ? You must know that the hospital never told the doctor to abuse the patient and didn't condone it. So why blame the institution for the wrongs done by one person ?

 We have to be vigilant for the truth.

 

not an answer to my question.

 

 

Edited June 26, 20232 yr by Mark F

2 hours ago, Dan38 said:

 I was trying to be concise but you are right, although Henry's infidelity was about getting a male heir so it's really the same. Even if Henry did have a son, history has him as having a wandering eye.

 Luther's prestige and power gave him more time to drink beer. He liked that too.

 

My whole point is that although Henry and Martin had ulterior motives no one denounces the Anglican faith or the Lutheran faith based solely on the actions of a few people. Yes there whackos out there but thankfully few and far between.

 Through all the criticism of the Catholic Church it is seldom pointed out that the Church feeds over one million starving people a day. Think about that... These are the kinds of facts and stories that should be presented along with the negative crap we all read.

 

 Tracker, are you a student of Latin ?

I was at one time. In the rural Manitoba small four room school I attended, books were rare but one was a Latin primer, so I read it and memorized some parts. I was surprised how many English words have Latin roots.

Yes, some of the Catholic priests and nuns do wonderful work and they should be honored for that. but it also has its very dark parts, like the orphanages all over the world where children (including babies) were abused and neglected to death. There was the Magdalene Laundries in Ireland and the Vatican's betrayal of Liberation Theology where it was allowed that priests and nuns in Central America to be killed by death squads funded by the United Food Company in exchange for several million dollars given to the Church.

16 hours ago, Tracker said:

I was at one time. In the rural Manitoba small four room school I attended, books were rare but one was a Latin primer, so I read it and memorized some parts. I was surprised how many English words have Latin roots.

Yes, some of the Catholic priests and nuns do wonderful work and they should be honored for that. but it also has its very dark parts, like the orphanages all over the world where children (including babies) were abused and neglected to death. There was the Magdalene Laundries in Ireland and the Vatican's betrayal of Liberation Theology where it was allowed that priests and nuns in Central America to be killed by death squads funded by the United Food Company in exchange for several million dollars given to the Church.

Like most evil, it usually profits through the work of the innocent and well meaning. 

On 2023-06-24 at 6:05 AM, the watcher said:

I hear this often but I totally disagree.  In my opinion MOST wars aren't started over religion but rather the combatants invoke God on their side once a war has started for other reasons. 

Isn't invoking God on their side religion? The Middle East has been all about religion for a thousand years. Muslim vs Judaism vs Christianity. The Crusades were about religion. I mean, I'm not gonna go into a 3,000 word essay but I believe that religion has started more wars than any other reason. 

3 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Isn't invoking God on their side religion? The Middle East has been all about religion for a thousand years. Muslim vs Judaism vs Christianity. The Crusades were about religion. I mean, I'm not gonna go into a 3,000 word essay but I believe that religion has started more wars than any other reason. 

I suggest that the religions were only a cover story. The wars were all about power and wealth and Muslims killed each other, as did Christians and Jews. The desire to better oneself at the expense seems to be a core distinction among humans. Other animals do it, too but not with the same enthusiasm.            Ironically, when I worked with the dying, damned few boasted about their accumulations. A few did but very few. Most were regretful about the time they wasted chasing the wrong rabbit. If yo are pursuing the wrong stuff, you can never get enough.

4 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Isn't invoking God on their side religion? The Middle East has been all about religion for a thousand years. Muslim vs Judaism vs Christianity. The Crusades were about religion. I mean, I'm not gonna go into a 3,000 word essay but I believe that religion has started more wars than any other reason. 

Invoking God after you have decided to go to war is quite different than than having religion start a war or be the root cause. Yes a greater percentage of the Middle East wars have religion at the core but  not all. I guess I could make a list but I'd lay a fair bit of coin on my argument and I'm not a betting man. Many mistake what they hear about religion in a war with what caused the war. Religion would be well behind greed for land and wealth , fear ( possibly #1) , poverty,  racism....

On 2023-06-26 at 6:51 PM, Tracker said:

I was at one time. In the rural Manitoba small four room school I attended, books were rare but one was a Latin primer, so I read it and memorized some parts. I was surprised how many English words have Latin roots.

Yes, some of the Catholic priests and nuns do wonderful work and they should be honored for that. but it also has its very dark parts, like the orphanages all over the world where children (including babies) were abused and neglected to death. There was the Magdalene Laundries in Ireland and the Vatican's betrayal of Liberation Theology where it was allowed that priests and nuns in Central America to be killed by death squads funded by the United Food Company in exchange for several million dollars given to the Church.

 The Magdalene laundries have mud slinging from both sides, some saying abuse happened and others denying it. I'm not sure what to believe but I notice you did not bother to mention that there were Protestant laundries too and in fact the first laundry was Protestant.

 I find it hard to believe the Pope took 7 mil and OK'd Priests and Nuns be executed. Does that sound reasonable to anyone ?

 

 I have a question. In this world of victim hood I want to know how far back do we go to satisfy screams of abuse. The Roman Empire conquered and killed many Gauls back in the first century BC. Does that mean today that Italy owes France reparations ? What is the line for past atrocities ? My ancestors were cleared off their land by England and many were killed and forced into slavery. Does that mean the Crown of England owes me money ? Sounds ridiculous to me but that is what is happening all over...... What happened, happened. We weren't there. The times were different and morals and laws were different. Why should anyone have to pay for the crimes of their ancestors ? If your brother robs a bank, should you go to jail too ? We will never progress if we keep pointing fingers at each other and digging up past wrongdoings and most of the time it is for personal monetary gain, nothing else. Does anyone toss and turn at night fretting about how their great, great, great grandfather was mistreated ?

45 minutes ago, Dan38 said:

I have a question. In this world of victim hood I want to know how far back do we go to satisfy screams of abuse. The Roman Empire conquered and killed many Gauls back in the first century BC. Does that mean today that Italy owes France reparations ? What is the line for past atrocities ? My ancestors were cleared off their land by England and many were killed and forced into slavery. Does that mean the Crown of England owes me money ? Sounds ridiculous to me but that is what is happening all over...... What happened, happened. We weren't there. The times were different and morals and laws were different. Why should anyone have to pay for the crimes of their ancestors ? If your brother robs a bank, should you go to jail too ? We will never progress if we keep pointing fingers at each other and digging up past wrongdoings and most of the time it is for personal monetary gain, nothing else. Does anyone toss and turn at night fretting about how their great, great, great grandfather was mistreated ?

Well, it gets even more complicated when the persecuted later become the persecutors

Short answer: each situation needs to be viewed differently

Example: we can still feel the reverberations of residential schools, and they cannot and should not be ignored

1 hour ago, Dan38 said:

 The Magdalene laundries have mud slinging from both sides, some saying abuse happened and others denying it. I'm not sure what to believe but I notice you did not bother to mention that there were Protestant laundries too and in fact the first laundry was Protestant.

 I find it hard to believe the Pope took 7 mil and OK'd Priests and Nuns be executed. Does that sound reasonable to anyone ?

 

 I have a question. In this world of victim hood I want to know how far back do we go to satisfy screams of abuse. The Roman Empire conquered and killed many Gauls back in the first century BC. Does that mean today that Italy owes France reparations ? What is the line for past atrocities ? My ancestors were cleared off their land by England and many were killed and forced into slavery. Does that mean the Crown of England owes me money ? Sounds ridiculous to me but that is what is happening all over...... What happened, happened. We weren't there. The times were different and morals and laws were different. Why should anyone have to pay for the crimes of their ancestors ? If your brother robs a bank, should you go to jail too ? We will never progress if we keep pointing fingers at each other and digging up past wrongdoings and most of the time it is for personal monetary gain, nothing else. Does anyone toss and turn at night fretting about how their great, great, great grandfather was mistreated ?

I cannot prove the 7 million dollar payout, but one of my patients was a priest who left orders after being severely beaten in Honduras and he knew firsthand of nuns who were raped, tortured and even killed by the death squads. These priests and nuns in Central America appealed to Rome for help when the threats began followed by attacks and killings, but were completely ignored. He said that he heard from others in the church hierarchy about the payment. 

21 hours ago, Dan38 said:

 The Magdalene laundries have mud slinging from both sides, some saying abuse happened and others denying it. I'm not sure what to believe but I notice you did not bother to mention that there were Protestant laundries too and in fact the first laundry was Protestant.

 I find it hard to believe the Pope took 7 mil and OK'd Priests and Nuns be executed. Does that sound reasonable to anyone ?

 

 I have a question. In this world of victim hood I want to know how far back do we go to satisfy screams of abuse. The Roman Empire conquered and killed many Gauls back in the first century BC. Does that mean today that Italy owes France reparations ? What is the line for past atrocities ? My ancestors were cleared off their land by England and many were killed and forced into slavery. Does that mean the Crown of England owes me money ? Sounds ridiculous to me but that is what is happening all over...... What happened, happened. We weren't there. The times were different and morals and laws were different. Why should anyone have to pay for the crimes of their ancestors ? If your brother robs a bank, should you go to jail too ? We will never progress if we keep pointing fingers at each other and digging up past wrongdoings and most of the time it is for personal monetary gain, nothing else. Does anyone toss and turn at night fretting about how their great, great, great grandfather was mistreated ?

The problem with your argument is that it ignores that in most cases churches have been set up for systematic monetary gain and have doled out systematic abuse in parallel from the power and privilege they've gained meddling with people's internal psychology. 

The actors may change from century to century but the wealth accumulation and the abuses have been continual attributes of these organizations from the beginning.  So it goes a whole lot deeper than blaming a mountain of atrocities on a few bad apples, when every one of these apples has been raised and educated within the church.

Edited June 29, 20232 yr by Fatty Liver

A pretty big generalization but I like the quote regardless. 

" Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise.” Rev. Sam Pascoe.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, the watcher said:

A pretty big generalization but I like the quote regardless. 

" Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise.” Rev. Sam Pascoe.

 

 

 

Generalized, but not untrue

Newly discovered correspondence suggests that World War II-era Pope Pius XII had detailed information from a trusted German Jesuit that up to 6,000 Jews and Poles were being gassed each day in German-occupied Poland. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/letter-showing-pope-pius-xii-detailed-information-german-jesuit-nazi-h-rcna105500

^^ As did most the world. I mean, Jews trying to escape as refugees was not a coincidence nor a secret.