Mod Edit:  This discussion was split out of the Canadian Politics topic

My main complaint with the Teacher's Unions is the number of school days they have arranged not to hold class.  Looking at the school calendar just for this semester alone in my school district in BC, they have negotiated 4 day weekends in Feb., Apr. and May, plus a 2 week spring break in late March.  I don't have the pre-Christmas calendar available but it was more or less the same for the previous semester.

Taking into account the inconvenience, cost and loss of productivity to parents arranging their lives around these "no school days" would reveal a sizeable burden heaped upon the taxpayer above and beyond their negotiated salaries.

2 hours ago, Throw Long Bannatyne said:

My main complaint with the Teacher's Unions is the number of school days they have arranged not to hold class.  Looking at the school calendar just for this semester alone in my school district in BC, they have negotiated 4 day weekends in Feb., Apr. and May, plus a 2 week spring break in late March.  I don't have the pre-Christmas calendar available but it was more or less the same for the previous semester.

Taking into account the inconvenience, cost and loss of productivity to parents arranging their lives around these "no school days" would reveal a sizeable burden heaped upon the taxpayer above and beyond their negotiated salaries.

It costs less to close the schools than to actually keep classes going. That's why there are so many days now with no classes.

Every province except Quebec has 190 instructional days plus 10 Professional Development days. The PD days save the system millions of dollars because if we didn't have them they would have to pay a substitute every time a teacher attended a workshop. Here in MB, where the PD days fall is up to individual school divisions but I don't how it works in other provinces 

43 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

Every province except Quebec has 190 instructional days plus 10 Professional Development days. The PD days save the system millions of dollars because if we didn't have them they would have to pay a substitute every time a teacher attended a workshop. Here in MB, where the PD days fall is up to individual school divisions but I don't how it works in other provinces 

They should make them do PD during the summer months to a minimum standard with no extra pay. The summer months of holidays used to be a trade off for the extra home hours worked and the volunteering done by teachers. However, since the unions have managed to kibosh a great deal of that, the teachers should be doing their PD in the summer. If it's 10 days throughout the year...then it should all be in the summer instead of sacrificing our children's education any further to appease the unions. Teachers who want to do more than 10 days in the summer could be rewarded for their effort with some sort of qualification pay upgrade.

10 minutes ago, gcn11 said:

They should make them do PD during the summer months to a minimum standard with no extra pay. The summer months of holidays used to be a trade off for the extra home hours worked and the volunteering done by teachers. However, since the unions have managed to kibosh a great deal of that, the teachers should be doing their PD in the summer. If it's 10 days throughout the year...then it should all be in the summer instead of sacrificing our children's education any further to appease the unions. Teachers who want to do more than 10 days in the summer could be rewarded for their effort with some sort of qualification pay upgrade.

1. There is still plenty of volunteer work happening, hundreds of hours of extra curricular activity. The most unions have achieved is specific wording that extra curricular activities are voluntary

2. Incentive to go to PD is already in place. It's fully funded and if you upgrade your qualifications you will receive a raise in pay.  

Im not a teacher so cant speak on specifics but I will say three of my friends are teachers (one is a principal) and they have scoffed at me in the past when I have said 'oh that must be a really hard job'.  And they list off all the perks you'd think - summers off, spring break, Christmas and lots of time throughout the day for lesson planning and whatnot...and the money is good.

18 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Im not a teacher so cant speak on specifics but I will say three of my friends are teachers (one is a principal) and they have scoffed at me in the past when I have said 'oh that must be a really hard job'.  And they list off all the perks you'd think - summers off, spring break, Christmas and lots of time throughout the day for lesson planning and whatnot...and the money is good.

No comment.  Other than you seem to have friends or relatives in pretty much every career that gets discussed on here.

3 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

No comment.  Other than you seem to have friends or relatives in pretty much every career that gets discussed on here.

That would be a comment and a stupid one at that.  Do you need the names and schools?  Three western Mb schools.  I know a lot of people.  Geeeeez, tough crowd.

I’ve spent a few years as an instructor at Red River and teaching isn’t at all like an office job, and if you’ve never done it day in and day out, it is hard to explain.  The stress and pressures are much much different, but they are there.

In fact, as an instructor at Red River, I think I had it easier then teachers.  It is way different teaching adults who are paying for the right to be there versus children who you have a much greater responsibility to help grow and develop. 

Even at Red River, I got 2 months off at summer, a week at Christmas, a week between terms, etc.  Yes, it was very nice to have that time off, but the job and the pressure in it is way different then anything else I’ve done (regular job and what I do now is in an office environment).   You get to basically make the timelines, so you don't get that kind of pressure, but the pressure comes from knowing that everyday, regardless of how you feel, you need to be up, prepared, and ready to present and teach.

At work if you are tired or having a bad day, you can at times go on cruise control just to get through the day.  When you are teaching you have to be “on” all the time.  Imagine every day you need to prepare to be up in front of people, educating them, presenting, and helping them learn. 

Yes, it gets easier when you teach the same material over many terms.  You get to tweak it rather than having to learn it outright, but knowing something enough to be able to teach it is having to learn it to a much higher level of understanding then just comprehending it.

And an hour in a classroom presenting is way more mentally exhausting then a morning spent at my desk.

I don’t begrudge teachers their pay or holidays.  They have an incredibly important job in our society.  We basically “off load” our children to these people for them to educate rather than doing it ourselves.  You want there to be enough pay and perks to the job to be able to attract competent people.

In reality, kids aren’t going to go to school for 12 months of the year.  Down time and summer recreation is also important for their development.  What do you want teachers to do for this time?  And there is a need to have time to decompress from a job where you have to be up, live, and “on” in front of a group of people or kids every day for hours on end.    Or you will see a much higher rate of burnout.

 

 

 

I've got two close friends as teachers and neither of them would describe their job as easy (one is actually stressed out to the point she's seriously considering a career change).  Both of them work in "rougher" schools in the city though not rural ones so there could be vast differences in what the job entails.

There's also a flipside to have those specific vacation "perks".  It means you have no flexibility to when you take your vacation.  Both my friends have missed out on a lot of important events (like destination weddings) because they were happening on non-break times.

My friends never called it easy.  Just that it wasnt the dire scenario often presented, especially in America.  But all three really love it.  One is now a Principal. 

I agree with you Rich.  But one of the problems in the education system is the "bad" teachers and how difficult it is to get rid of them.  I had mostly "good" teachers, a few amazing teachers and a few "bad" teachers.  I actually when to university for a year with the intention of going into Education because two teachers in particular inspired me, one in Junior High and one in High School. 

The friend who is now in administration spent a lot of time working with his students, using social media to keep them engaged.  He used to tweet out math problems and his students would try to solve them.  Way over my head.  Math seems to have changed since I was in school....

55 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Im not a teacher so cant speak on specifics but I will say three of my friends are teachers (one is a principal) and they have scoffed at me in the past when I have said 'oh that must be a really hard job'.  And they list off all the perks you'd think - summers off, spring break, Christmas and lots of time throughout the day for lesson planning and whatnot...and the money is good.

 

2 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

My friends never called it easy.  Just that it wasnt the dire scenario often presented, especially in America.  But all three really love it.  One is now a Principal. 

I agree with you Rich.  But one of the problems in the education system is the "bad" teachers and how difficult it is to get rid of them.  I had mostly "good" teachers, a few amazing teachers and a few "bad" teachers.  I actually when to university for a year with the intention of going into Education because two teachers in particular inspired me, one in Junior High and one in High School. 

The friend who is now in administration spent a lot of time working with his students, using social media to keep them engaged.  He used to tweet out math problems and his students would try to solve them.  Way over my head.  Math seems to have changed since I was in school....

I don't know what the dire situation in America is, but these two bolded statements come across as quite different.  Your original post, to which to anyone reading it, sure seemed to imply that they had it really easy, since they scoffed that it was a hard job and you went on to list all of the great perks about it.

But then we gloss over that and want to talk about the bad teachers and how to get rid of them.

Sure Rich. They scoffed at me saying how hard it is. Didn't say it was easy. There's a fairly wide coverage between hard and easy. And they love the perks. All true. 

But we don't have to discuss bad teachers or gloss over my prior statements. I'm happy to keep discussing them. Where would you like to start?

9 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Sure Rich. They scoffed at me saying how hard it is. Didn't say it was easy. There's a fairly wide coverage between hard and easy. And they love the perks. All true. 

But we don't have to discuss bad teachers or gloss over my prior statements. I'm happy to keep discussing them. Where would you like to start?

I've said my peace.  I'm fine if we get back to discussing politics.

Seems to me that teaching is a job that is as hard as you make it. We've all been through school, we all know how not all teachers are created equally. Some put in more effort than others do. 

Both my parents were teachers, so I know from personal experience that its not an easy job.  But that being said, there are a lot of teachers who give that extra effort, and some lazy ones who don't.  What I don't like in the unionized model (and my parents didn't like it either) was that those lazy teachers are pretty impossible to dislodge.  My mom always said one of the harder parts of the job was the parents, not the kids, as the parents can be total jerks sometimes.

Mark - I think we' ve gone back and forth enough on this topic regarding the BCTF.  I do throw up in my mouth a bit when you use verbiage like "BC has the fourth lowest paid teachers in Canada".  That's just propaganda.  If a lawyer is the fourth lowest paid lawyer in his firm, and still takes home $200K a year, vs another lawyer who makes $250K, that $200K lawyer is hard to feel sorry for.  Canada as a whole has some of the highest paid teachers in the world.  And I think that's awesome.  It's a tough profession, and deserves to be rewarded.  I also think that if BC is so bad off salary-wise for teachers, you would wonder why there are thousands of unemployed teachers here in BC right now.  Teaching pays well, and so it's hard for me to feel sorry for anyone who says that its not enough.

And inherent in your argument is the flawed assumption that if the BCTF hadn't been given the right to decide class size and composition, they would have received huge raises.  I don't think the BCTF would have gotten those huge raises.  But that's also assuming that the BCTF would be negotiating with a government that wasn't in a giant conflict of interest, and in the pocket of the unions.  So it is hard to say what they would have gotten.  In a perfect world, our government isn't in the pocket of any special interests, but I know that will never happen.

Edited April 26, 20169 yr by kelownabomberfan

That's fair enough KBF. To tell you the truth, I was deliberately taking things to the other end of the spectrum to bring in the other perspective. We both know the truth is somewhere in the murky middle. Sorry for making you puke in your mouth, puke sucks. 

I remember from my own time in school seeing problem children who, when the parents were brought in, were suddenly perfect little angels.

When you have a really good teacher, its all the difference in the world.  It makes wanting to go to school an enjoyable experience and you feel inspired and with a desire to learn.  It must be hard for teachers who have classrooms that contain kids of various learning means.  I always enjoyed lectures if they were engaging.  Couldnt do the furious note taking where a teacher just scribbled on the board.  Needed that "discussion" to flesh out the material.  Different for other people.

I recall in high school senior year, I had been putting off taking a half credit science I needed.  So I took a freshmen science class just to get the credit.  I was already working nights at a job.  The teacher assigned us a project for which there was no class time to work on it and you had to work in groups of your own making.  So Im about 3 years older than everyone else, working every evening and I go to the teacher and ask if I can do the project myself.  I explain the situation and he says no.  And when I ask why not, he says being able to work in a group is part of the mark.  I was very aggravated...told him I had learned to play nicely in elementary school.  Ended up dropping the class and later took a way less interesting science (I think DNA) just to get the credit.  The teacher had previously been one I really enjoyed but he was unmoving on this one issue.

So I can imagine trying to customize material for different learning styles and situations is a difficult aspect.

30 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

Both my parents were teachers, so I know from personal experience that its not an easy job.  But that being said, there are a lot of teachers who give that extra effort, and some lazy ones who don't.  What I don't like in the unionized model (and my parents didn't like it either) was that those lazy teachers are pretty impossible to dislodge.  My mom always said one of the harder parts of the job was the parents, not the kids, as the parents can be total jerks sometimes.

Mark - I think we' ve gone back and forth enough on this topic regarding the BCTF.  I do throw up in my mouth a bit when you use verbiage like "BC has the fourth lowest paid teachers in Canada".  That's just propaganda.  If a lawyer is the fourth lowest paid lawyer in his firm, and still takes home $200K a year, vs another lawyer who makes $250K, that $200K lawyer is hard to feel sorry for.  Canada as a whole has some of the highest paid teachers in the world.  And I think that's awesome.  It's a tough profession, and deserves to be rewarded.  I also think that if BC is so bad off salary-wise for teachers, you would wonder why there are thousands of unemployed teachers here in BC right now.  Teaching pays well, and so it's hard for me to feel sorry for anyone who says that its not enough.

And inherent in your argument is the flawed assumption that if the BCTF hadn't been given the right to decide class size and composition, they would have received huge raises.  I don't think the BCTF would have gotten those huge raises.  But that's also assuming that the BCTF would be negotiating with a government that wasn't in a giant conflict of interest, and in the pocket of the unions.  So it is hard to say what they would have gotten.  In a perfect world, our government isn't in the pocket of any special interests, but I know that will never happen.

Couldn't agree more. I don't know enough to have a stand on unions in general but it definitely seems (admittedly from the outside) that in some professions, like teaching, unions can sometimes protect poor workers. I work in a field in which I often either hear about the impact of or interact directly with teachers and there are many who I think should be paid more and many who I think should find a new job. In a lot of ways teachers are co-parents and I think that when they embody that role - which many do - they earn every penny; the problem is there are too many that don't and they are far too secure in their jobs.

I have been teaching for over 10 years and have also chaired collective bargaining for the local association. I'm very much aware of those issues and have wrestled with them. However, not negotiating to improve working conditions wouldn't be fair to those who are dedicated. It's a tough balancing act. 

7 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

I have been teaching for over 10 years and have also chaired collective bargaining for the local association. I'm very much aware of those issues and have wrestled with them. However, not negotiating to improve working conditions wouldn't be fair to those who are dedicated. It's a tough balancing act. 

Is there a desire by the members to "weed out" (for lack of a better term) poor teachers?  Or is it a matter of not being able to be that picky?

9 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

I have been teaching for over 10 years and have also chaired collective bargaining for the local association. I'm very much aware of those issues and have wrestled with them. However, not negotiating to improve working conditions wouldn't be fair to those who are dedicated. It's a tough balancing act. 

Totally fair. The same could be said for most unionized workplaces; I know it could be for mine.

4 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Is there a desire by the members to "weed out" (for lack of a better term) poor teachers?  Or is it a matter of not being able to be that picky?

How do you determine which ones are poor?

4 minutes ago, Atomic said:

How do you determine which ones are poor?

Good question.  I would ask my parents that.  I know my nephew is enjoying his school right now save for one teacher who he claims is terrible.  I know he may just have it in for the guy but when the teacher got sick and a sub was called in, the class immediately improved for those two weeks that the "bad" teacher was away, and my nephew said he learned more in those two weeks than in six months with the "bad" one.  Apparently everyone knows this guy is a "bad" egg (according to my mom, who of course is actively involved in her grandkids education) but no one can do anything about him, as he has cleverly inserted himself inside the MTS apparatus, so is basically bullet-proof.  I know Mark may say this isn't true, but I am just going off of what my mom, a retired teacher and former MTS member (not by choice) is telling me.  Perhaps now with the Conservatives taking over the MTS's power may be curtailed a bit.  I know the BCTF was ruling the roost here in BC under the NDP, who even gave the BCTF the power to discipline their own members.  Guess how many were disciplined when a union was in charge of the discipline?  Not many.  Talk about a massive conflict of interest.  Just ridiculous.

Edited April 26, 20169 yr by kelownabomberfan

Well, I think at most jobs you have performance standards and supervisor reviews and they can determine who sucks and who doesnt.  Teaching isnt so abstract that this wouldnt apply...?  Im in a unionized environment and it can be difficult to fire a lousy employee unless you do something particularly egregious so I imagine its difficult in teaching. 

I think the measuring of teacher’s performance to weed out the bad ones is a very tricky thing which could have very bad consequences.  Good in theory, very hard in practice.  How do you measure that performance?   If you get that wrong, does a teacher change their teaching to conform to what is in the best interest of them keeping their job vs. what is in the best interest of their students?

Look at the horror stories you read in the states when they implemented their no child left behind program, where school funding was based on student performance.  The result was definitely not in the best interest of the student.

The unfortunate truth is that ½ of the people out there are in the bottom half of society in terms of ability and performance.  You are going to get good teachers and bad.  You absolutely need to be able to get rid of the abusive ones, but the so called “bad” ones do serve a purpose as well.

Imagine you went through your whole education with only the “good” teachers.  Everything is butterflies and rainbows.  People are nice, encouraging, you are free to grow and develop.  Now you get out into the real world and your first boss is a grade a ******.  You are not at all equipped to handle that, because you have very little experiences to relate to this situation.

I hope we all have fond memories of some teachers that have touched us and influenced us growing up, but the “bad” ones, the “boring” ones, and the “strict” ones probably taught you some valuable life lessons as well, whether they meant to or not.