Wrestling

[The Unknown Poster]

i doubt it will be six stars. But you never know. Kenny having “best match” matches is becoming pretty regular. As a wrestling fan, the prospect of a match of that quality (never mind the historic nature and the local connection) would never be a meh. 

Winnipeg has lousy media .  the clash of local boys on the second biggest stage in the world is getting far more press everywhere else but when Kenny comes home they all want interviews.  That’s the real meh! 

Unless wwe has something big up their sleeve the biggest match in the world happens tonight, not at WM...

 

[The Unknown Poster]

Can’t seem to spoiler tag from mobile. 

So SPOILERS....

 

 

Wrestle Kingdom Results (minus the world title which is on now)

 

 

 

Masahito Kakihara won the NEW JAPAN RUMBLE

 

The Young Bucks defeated Roppongi 3K to win the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Tag Titles

Beretta, Tomohiro Ishii, and Toru Yano defeated Bullet Club, Suzuki-gun, Elgin & War Machine in a Gauntlet Match to win the NEVER Openweight 6-Man Tag Team Championships

 

Kota Ibushi defeated Cody in a Handsome Battle

 

EVIL and SANADA defeated Killer Elite Squad to win the IWGP Tag Team Championships

 

Hirooki Goto beat Minoru Suzuki in a Hair & No Seconds Deathmatch to win the NEVER Openweight Championship

 

Will Ospreay defeated Marty Scurll, KUSHIDA, and Hiromu Takahashi to win the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship

 

Hiroshi Tanahashi defeated Switchblade Jay White to retain the IWGP Intercontinental Championship

 

Kenny Omega defeated Chris Jericho to retain the IWGP United States Championship

 

Great show. Really really good. Omega/Jericho was tremendous. Could be Jericho’s last truly great match. 

 

 

 

[Brandon]

So Meltzer will give it a perfect score and Cornette will **** on Omega I assume?

[Goalie]

3 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Can’t seem to spoiler tag from mobile. 

So SPOILERS....

 

 

Wrestle Kingdom Results (minus the world title which is on now)

 

 

 

Masahito Kakihara won the NEW JAPAN RUMBLE

 

The Young Bucks defeated Roppongi 3K to win the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Tag Titles

Beretta, Tomohiro Ishii, and Toru Yano defeated Bullet Club, Suzuki-gun, Elgin & War Machine in a Gauntlet Match to win the NEVER Openweight 6-Man Tag Team Championships

 

Kota Ibushi defeated Cody in a Handsome Battle

 

EVIL and SANADA defeated Killer Elite Squad to win the IWGP Tag Team Championships

 

Hirooki Goto beat Minoru Suzuki in a Hair & No Seconds Deathmatch to win the NEVER Openweight Championship

 

Will Ospreay defeated Marty Scurll, KUSHIDA, and Hiromu Takahashi to win the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship

 

Hiroshi Tanahashi defeated Switchblade Jay White to retain the IWGP Intercontinental Championship

 

Kenny Omega defeated Chris Jericho to retain the IWGP United States Championship

 

Great show. Really really good. Omega/Jericho was tremendous. Could be Jericho’s last truly great match. 

 

 

 

Okada and Naito were the main event no? 

[The Unknown Poster]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

So Meltzer will give it a perfect score and Cornette will **** on Omega I assume?

Cornette  is a work. He said the same stuff about the bucks and then privately asked them to do an angle with him. He’s just being a  contrarian to what’s hot now 

meltzer is generally bang on with his ratings. It’s funny when WWE fans go nuts on him online about a Japanese bias. It’s hilrious. 

[The Unknown Poster]

48 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Okada and Naito were the main event no? 

Billed as a double main. I had to run after Kenny’s match. 

Okada retained. 

EDIT to add, I havent seen it yet but the reviews Ive seen are off the charts for it.  I wasnt a big Okada fan, personally (I like Tanahashi more) but he's really good.  And Naito is really good too.

The whole show is worth checking out.  It was really good.  English commentary was very strong also.

Edited January 4, 2018 by The Unknown Poster

[Atomic]

22 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Cornette  is a work. He said the same stuff about the bucks and then privately asked them to do an angle with him. He’s just being a  contrarian to what’s hot now 

meltzer is generally bang on with his ratings. It’s funny when WWE fans go nuts on him online about a Japanese bias. It’s hilrious. 

Bang on?  It's totally subjective in most cases.  Sure sometimes you get a legit incredible match like Omega-Okada but I've seen him **** on some really good WWE matches, seemingly just because it's WWE.  If a WWE match doesn't involve an "indies guy" like Styles or Nakamura, Meltzer is going to give it a bad review.  There's really not much more to it than that.

[The Unknown Poster]

14 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Bang on?  It's totally subjective in most cases.  Sure sometimes you get a legit incredible match like Omega-Okada but I've seen him **** on some really good WWE matches, seemingly just because it's WWE.  If a WWE match doesn't involve an "indies guy" like Styles or Nakamura, Meltzer is going to give it a bad review.  There's really not much more to it than that.

Thats not true.  Of course opinions are always subjective.  We've seen plenty of professional film critics gave some reviews we dont agree with.  I think some fans see a 3 star match and feel personally offended and yet Dave would say "yeah it was good.  Perfectly fine".  But to rise to the level of 5 star+ for him requires more.  It has nothing to do with talent because WWE has talent that can have 5 star matches, but WWE is not an environment where most guys get to have that level of match.

Wrestle Kingdom last night was better than anything WWE has produced in ages.  And Im not biased.  Im not a big New Japan fan.  It takes time to get into a new product as well, you have to get to know the talent to really be interested.  So Im getting to know more but I rarely watch New Japan, its mainly to see Kenny.  But last night was tremendous.  And a really good entry point for North American fans who might only watch for Jericho and/or Omega because there were several North Americans on the show and several Japanese guys that, if you'd never seen them before, they are easy to get into.

But I've disagreed with Dave on some thing.  We're not friends.  Im not biased.  But he's the premier "observer" (wink) of wrestling and generally bang on in his assessment.  If you take a 4 star WWE match and compare it to a 5 or 6 star New Japan match, you can see the difference. 

Also, AJ Styles is a WWE guy now.  Virtually all WWE guys were indie guys at some point.  And Dave has been down on Nak to a degree.  He's a defender of Roman too, which might surprise people who accuse him of an anti-WWE bias.

[Atomic]

4 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Thats not true.  Of course opinions are always subjective.  We've seen plenty of professional film critics gave some reviews we dont agree with.  I think some fans see a 3 star match and feel personally offended and yet Dave would say "yeah it was good.  Perfectly fine".  But to rise to the level of 5 star+ for him requires more.  It has nothing to do with talent because WWE has talent that can have 5 star matches, but WWE is not an environment where most guys get to have that level of match.

Wrestle Kingdom last night was better than anything WWE has produced in ages.  And Im not biased.  Im not a big New Japan fan.  It takes time to get into a new product as well, you have to get to know the talent to really be interested.  So Im getting to know more but I rarely watch New Japan, its mainly to see Kenny.  But last night was tremendous.  And a really good entry point for North American fans who might only watch for Jericho and/or Omega because there were several North Americans on the show and several Japanese guys that, if you'd never seen them before, they are easy to get into.

But I've disagreed with Dave on some thing.  We're not friends.  Im not biased.  But he's the premier "observer" (wink) of wrestling and generally bang on in his assessment.  If you take a 4 star WWE match and compare it to a 5 or 6 star New Japan match, you can see the difference. 

Also, AJ Styles is a WWE guy now.  Virtually all WWE guys were indie guys at some point.  And Dave has been down on Nak to a degree.  He's a defender of Roman too, which might surprise people who accuse him of an anti-WWE bias.

He gave Lesnar/Goldberg a 3.5 at Wrestlemania 33.  Absolutely he is biased.  That is just absurd.  If it's not a bunch of indie guys doing flip-de-doos it's not getting a good rating, end of story.

[The Unknown Poster]

30 minutes ago, Atomic said:

He gave Lesnar/Goldberg a 3.5 at Wrestlemania 33.  Absolutely he is biased.  That is just absurd.  If it's not a bunch of indie guys doing flip-de-doos it's not getting a good rating, end of story.

That rating sounds about right.  Why is it absurd?  Because you really really enjoyed the story and drama of the match?  Thats two aspects to a great match.  If you think it was a better match than Omega/Okada, that is entirely your right to feel that way.  But it wasnt a better match.  I loved the match, but I wouldnt give it five stars.  It would be really really hard for a match that short to ever be in "perfect match" territory.  By the way, the RAW Tag ladder match got higher star rating and was rated higher by fans on the observer website as well.  3.5 stars is really good when you consider that 4 stars has traditionally been the top rating.  I mean, he basically said it was as close to a "great" match as you can get.

But as you said, its subjective.  Betting sites actually give odds on Dave's star ratings now.  But no one is obligated to agree with him.  Im just saying my perspective is that Dave and I are often aligned on our opinions of matches. 

EDIT: For what its worth, having seen Omega/Jericho once (and very tired), I'd probably give it 4 stars (if I have star ratings, which I dont because I agree, it IS subjective...its much easier to simply classify a match bad, good, great whatever).  They had one minor...dont want to say screw up, but looked like an issue getting blood at the right moment but Im not sure most fans would notice.  And Jericho was great but he's not 35 anymore and it showed to a degree.

Definitely worth seeing though!  And I'd love to hear your opinion of it.

Edited January 4, 2018 by The Unknown Poster

[Goalie]

10 minutes ago, Atomic said:

He gave Lesnar/Goldberg a 3.5 at Wrestlemania 33.  Absolutely he is biased.  That is just absurd.  If it's not a bunch of indie guys doing flip-de-doos it's not getting a good rating, end of story.

I agree. Plus hes a ****. 

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, Goalie said:

I agree. Plus hes a ****. 

Dave Meltzer??  Hmmm.  When was he a **** to you?

[Goalie]

Just now, The Unknown Poster said:

Dave Meltzer??  Hmmm.  When was he a **** to you?

 

I get it TUP.. Hes prob your boy... Like Omega who can do no wrong. 

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, Goalie said:

 

I get it TUP.. Hes prob your boy... Like Omega who can do no wrong. 

LOL!  If you can't back up a statement, dont make it.  I know you have a weird thing about wrestling but just chill, man.  Also, what does the Kenny remark even mean?  Like is he roaming the country side doing wrong and Im an apologist? hahahahaha  Sorry pal.  I know a big star wrestler.  If you want, I can introduce you next time he's in town.  Get you an autograph and everything ;-)

[Goalie]

You like Meltzer are anti WWE and a huge Indy mark. Thats just reality... Thanks for the offer... Ive already met him twice tho. 

[The Unknown Poster]

3 minutes ago, Goalie said:

You like Meltzer are anti WWE and a huge Indy mark. Thats just reality... Thanks for the offer... Ive already met him twice tho. 

I like Dave.  I am not anti-WWE and its the promotion I watch the most by far.  I am not an indy mark at all and rarely watch indy wrestling.  Reality is, you have an oddly bruised ego about people knowing something you dont whether its wrestling, hockey, football or anything else as evidenced by your attitude displayed all over this board over the years.   You have had twisted knickers several times in the wrestling thread because you speak like an expert and get things wrong.  Which is cool.  I generally appreciate when someone in other threads corrects me or offers a more expert opinion especially because most people are very respectful and chill.  You're just not one of them.  

I dont take it personally because thats just how message boards are though I do lol from time to time.   Oh well. Maybe one day Kenny will be in WWE and you can then pretend you always knew he was great.   

 

[The Unknown Poster]

Something non-New Japan related, Smackdown's ratings are up 5.3% since AJ won the title.  Imagine that.

[Atomic]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

That rating sounds about right.  Why is it absurd?  Because you really really enjoyed the story and drama of the match?  Thats two aspects to a great match.  If you think it was a better match than Omega/Okada, that is entirely your right to feel that way.  But it wasnt a better match.  I loved the match, but I wouldnt give it five stars.  It would be really really hard for a match that short to ever be in "perfect match" territory.  By the way, the RAW Tag ladder match got higher star rating and was rated higher by fans on the observer website as well.  3.5 stars is really good when you consider that 4 stars has traditionally been the top rating.  I mean, he basically said it was as close to a "great" match as you can get.

But as you said, its subjective.  Betting sites actually give odds on Dave's star ratings now.  But no one is obligated to agree with him.  Im just saying my perspective is that Dave and I are often aligned on our opinions of matches. 

EDIT: For what its worth, having seen Omega/Jericho once (and very tired), I'd probably give it 4 stars (if I have star ratings, which I dont because I agree, it IS subjective...its much easier to simply classify a match bad, good, great whatever).  They had one minor...dont want to say screw up, but looked like an issue getting blood at the right moment but Im not sure most fans would notice.  And Jericho was great but he's not 35 anymore and it showed to a degree.

Definitely worth seeing though!  And I'd love to hear your opinion of it.

I didn't think it was better than Omega/Okada and I don't mean to rag on that match at all... but I also don't think a match needs to be an hour to be great, or to have a bunch of crazy spots... I think an all-out brawl when used correctly can be extremely effective.  WM33 was the perfect end to the Goldberg/Lesnar feud.  They absolutely nailed it.  But whatever... no reason to argue about it.  You'll have your opinion and I'll have mine.  When I read or listen to Meltzer, I see someone very "jaded" on the industry.  Can't blame him, when he's been a part of it for decades, but it really shows.

I probably won't be able to watch Omega/Y2J until the weekend... hopefully I can find it online somewhere.  But I will certainly post my thoughts.  I expect it to be great.

[The Unknown Poster]

@Atomic - I agree, Lesnar/Goldberg was awesome.  I think Dave is jaded to a degree with WWE because WWE is very frustrating in how they book and produce and whatnot.  They dont get the best out of their talent for that reason and they dont seem to care because they make boat loads of money.  But he also was intimately observing the industry through sex scandals, steroids/drug scandals, murders etc so him being somewhat jaded, I can see.  

There was a time my promotion ran three shows per week regularly and then occasional spot shows.  And I thought that was "living & breathing" wrestling.  Now, when guys message me immediately after a show I say I dont even want to think about wrestling for at least a week.  Dave literally is 24/7 wrestling.  Makes a lot of money so cant feel bad for him.  But still.  I get what you're saying.

[Brandon]

I've watched Kenny Omega live a long time ago (almost 12 years) and back then he was very entertaining to watch.   I could only imagine how much better he is live now. 

[Brandon]

I just watched the match with English commentary,   it was very entertaining for what it was.   I liked the spot where Jericho drop kicked Omega in the knees while he was on the top rope.   Looked real good.      I also would agree that The Jackyl is still very good on the mic.     I came away entertained. 

[The Unknown Poster]

8 hours ago, Brandon said:

I just watched the match with English commentary,   it was very entertaining for what it was.   I liked the spot where Jericho drop kicked Omega in the knees while he was on the top rope.   Looked real good.      I also would agree that The Jackyl is still very good on the mic.     I came away entertained. 

That spot jumps out at me as a great one.  Tremendous timing on Jericho's part and right on target.  You could tell Jericho is starting to finally work his age, but he had moments of astounding athleticism.  That was one of them.

I was not a fan of Callis when he first returned but he was very good last night.  Kelly was too. 

[The Unknown Poster]

Jericho attacked Naito at New Japan's "New Years Dash" (basically like RAW after Wrestlemania) so he looks to be sticking around for at least one more match, which would explain why Okada retained the World title at Wrestle Kingdom when most expected Naito to win it.

Bullet Club angle had Omega preventing Cody from hitting Kota Ibushi (Kenny's former tag team partner) with a chair, they argued over who was the real leader of the group.  Kenny offered Jay White a spot in the Bullet Club, but White declined and brawled with Omega.  So looks like the next feud over the United States Championship is between a guy from Canada and a guy from New Zealand!

[Goalie]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Jericho attacked Naito at New Japan's "New Years Dash" (basically like RAW after Wrestlemania) so he looks to be sticking around for at least one more match, which would explain why Okada retained the World title at Wrestle Kingdom when most expected Naito to win it.

Bullet Club angle had Omega preventing Cody from hitting Kota Ibushi (Kenny's former tag team partner) with a chair, they argued over who was the real leader of the group.  Kenny offered Jay White a spot in the Bullet Club, but White declined and brawled with Omega.  So looks like the next feud over the United States Championship is between a guy from Canada and a guy from New Zealand!

Omega vs a guy who pretty much is wearing Kennys old gear? Neat. 

[The Unknown Poster]

7 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Omega vs a guy who pretty much is wearing Kennys old gear? Neat. 

Yeah Im not sold on Jay White from what I've seen of him.  And the crowd at WK didnt buy him as a threat to Tanahashi (they went too long).  But he was essentially a New Japan youngboy so he'll get every opportunity.  Working with Kenny will help him a lot too.  25 years old so lots of upside.  He's another guy that doesnt have WWE aspirations.  New Japan can take their time with him.

I wouldn't rule out a hotshot title change though it would be odd.  I believe Kenny's contract expires in 24 days so you never know (I expect him to re-up if he hasn't already).