The Ultimate Warrior, Dead at 54

[The Unknown Poster]

I seem to remember watching the special on the history of the UFC and them saying that they produced the show on their own dime and that Spike allowed them to air the program since they were desperate for any programming.

Brock brought in fans but not from WWE promoting it. What's funny is WWE is now using the UFC to try to promote its product by bringing in Brock and trying to implement submissions which look ridiculous in a WWE ring.

 

Yes, but Spike wanted to air TUF immediately following RAW using the highest rated cable show audience as a lead-in.  Vince had veto rights and had to agree.  He didnt feel UFC was competition to WWE and allowed TUF to air after his show.

 

Shane McMahon tried desperately to convince Vince to buy UFC at one point.

 

WWE has used submissions for many decades.  The tap out was directly as a result of the popularity of UFC though.  Although I do agree, some submissions look terrible to an audience that is more educated to them.

[The Unknown Poster]

I think if Brock goes back Dana will have to protect him a tad site better than he did the first couple times. The sight of Brock getting his brains beat in by Overeem are a bad image for most inside marks to WWE or UFC....

 

And if he's protected (by taking on inferior opponents or making sure better opponents don't hit Brock in the head (his weak spot) then the cry goes out that UFC is faking up.

 

Dana has one money fight left for GSP so he better use it well. 

 

He's probably got a couple left for Ronda Rousey (his biggest star besides Jon Jones) but what happens when Rousey and Jones go to Hollywood or get mega-money offers from WWE....???

I dont think Brock will go back.  But you can't under-estimate his desire.  He's driven by two things: money and pride.  And he will sacrifice one for the other.  He hates how his UFC career ended and was very sick and unable to train the way he wanted.  He's much better now and I think thats what drives him a bit.  But theres little upside.  He makes a lot of money now to work very limited dates with virtually no injury risk.

[bigg jay]

 

Shane McMahon tried desperately to convince Vince to buy UFC at one point.

 

WWE has used submissions for many decades.  The tap out was directly as a result of the popularity of UFC though.  Although I do agree, some submissions look terrible to an audience that is more educated to them.

 

 

There were rumors that the WWE was a possible buyer for the UFC when Zuffa was looking at selling.  The rumors also said that Zuffa wasn't keen on that because they wanted to avoid the Bellator/TNA situation with the cross-over stuff.  The last thing they wanted after dumping 40 million into legitimizing MMA, is to have them doing worked fights.

 

Their definitely have been more MMA-orientated submissions that you did not see prior to the UFC (triangle chokes, gogoplatas, etc).  Part of the reason they don't translate well is because they can't be properly applied in the WWE without potentially doing real damage or actually choking someone out.

[Brandon]

Well Brock unfortunately is a part of a division in which the high end talent is extremely thin...   I don't think they can justify headlining ppv's of Brock vs guys with .500 like records...         

[The Unknown Poster]

Brock would sell PPV's for curiosity alone.  If MMA was such that it was an option for a guy like Brock when he was 20, there is no telling how good he could have been.  As it was, with limited cross training, he was pretty darn good.  I always found that he really hated getting hit and when he got hit, he reacted poorly.

[bigg jay]

 

I think if Brock goes back Dana will have to protect him a tad site better than he did the first couple times. The sight of Brock getting his brains beat in by Overeem are a bad image for most inside marks to WWE or UFC....

 

And if he's protected (by taking on inferior opponents or making sure better opponents don't hit Brock in the head (his weak spot) then the cry goes out that UFC is faking up.

 

Dana has one money fight left for GSP so he better use it well. 

 

He's probably got a couple left for Ronda Rousey (his biggest star besides Jon Jones) but what happens when Rousey and Jones go to Hollywood or get mega-money offers from WWE....???

I dont think Brock will go back.  But you can't under-estimate his desire.  He's driven by two things: money and pride.  And he will sacrifice one for the other.  He hates how his UFC career ended and was very sick and unable to train the way he wanted.  He's much better now and I think thats what drives him a bit.  But theres little upside.  He makes a lot of money now to work very limited dates with virtually no injury risk.

 

 

I don't think Brock will come back either.  As much as he didn't like the way his last UFC run finished, I don't see him doing much better if there is a next time.  A rubber match with Frank Mir would be his best fight.  You can only protect a guy so long in that sport, even they gave him a couple easier fights, eventually he'd get put in with a top guy like Cain Velasquez and it wouldn't be pretty.

 

Rousey has already started to go Hollywood but she loves to fight so who knows how long she'll stick around.  Jones isn't going anywhere, he makes a ton of coin in the UFC (last year he made more than both his NFL playing brothers combined).  He might get some Randy Couture type films (The Expendables) as a part time guy but he'll never be a main attraction.

[bigg jay]

Brock would sell PPV's for curiosity alone.  If MMA was such that it was an option for a guy like Brock when he was 20, there is no telling how good he could have been.  As it was, with limited cross training, he was pretty darn good.  I always found that he really hated getting hit and when he got hit, he reacted poorly.

 

This!

 

Apparently, when he was training MMA, he'd never let his sparring partners use strikes to the head (he would tee off on them though) and it showed in his fights.

 

A lot of pro wrestlers would have gone the MMA route (at least initially) if that had been an option when they started out.  The Undertaker has said he would definitely tried his hand at it.

[Brandon]

Well in fairness Shane Carwin throws absolute bombs that blew many fighters away and Brock not only took a huge ass kicking he ended up coming back.

 

With Overeem he's a bloody K-1 champ and in the first 4 minutes of a fight he hits as hard as anyone in the sport.

 

Brock isn't a wuss by any means...  I think his health issues ultimately made the decision for him.  It's way easier to dabble in the WWE and make a million then for him to get seriously hurt for only a little more. 

[bigg jay]

It's not a shot at Lesnar, just a fact that his striking game was not at the level needed to compete with guys like that.

Considering the age he started at and how long he trained for, he did very well. He's a legit freak of nature, athletically speaking, he just got into the game too late.

[Nasty Nate]

I'm sure Dana White would have preferred Brock go over on Overeem but even White must have sensed Lesnar was gonna get beaten within an inch of his life by that Dutch monster. I think White actually screwed Brock Lesnar more than Brock screwed Brock - ie. he didn't protect him properly from monsters and didn't realize Brock had a massive kryptonite in his game

[The Unknown Poster]

I dont think Brock wanted protecting.  And I think Dana was samrt enough to know he had a monster with freakish athletic skill but one who was getting older and needed to make the big money fights while he could.  Brock had a bit of Mike Tyson mystique too - had he wanted to coninue in UFC, he still would have drawn big regardless of his record.  I think his health made it hard to train like Brock wanted and needed to train.  And whereas in the past the WWE had been reluctant to give out big money limited date deals, they are not as reluctant any more.

 

With the advent of the Network, I'd like to see more limited date deals for past guys.  its a slippery slope to a degree because you dont want every guy over 35 demanding limited dates (and the problem is, if you have ten top guys on TV that dont work house shows, you're killing your house show business).  But Batista came back at age 44 working full time (with liberal time off for movie promotions which benefits WWE anyway).

 

WWE pursued Bill Goldberg for a WrestleMania appearance and appealed to his desire for a big pop on the big stage rather than his true desire for big money.  As big a star as some consider Sting, WWE doesnt seem to see him that way and want him only for what it means to the Network than as a TV star.

[Nasty Nate]

Isn't Sting well over 50?

 

Ric Flair is 65+ but he made a nifty appearance on WWE Raw last nite with the idea of getting The SHIELD over.

 

Hogan is 60 or 61

 

Bautista is 44/45

 

Taker turns 50 soon and he's just a shell of his former self.

 

Even Kane is nearing 50 but the guy looks monsterous and can still work some high spots!

 

Other than Bray Wyatt WWE is having trouble getting young guys over....

[The Unknown Poster]

Sting is 55.  Personally I see him as a big star that should be on every RAW and PPV for a year.  They have several big matches for him.  He's the one big star of the past 25 years who was never in WWE.

 

Getting young guys over requires patience and thoughtful creative.  In the 90's, WWE created a bunch of "new" stars because they had no choice as WCW raided them of most of their established stars.  But Vince had to be dragged to that realisation.  Steve Austin, who was a veteran when he became a "new" star, Rocky who's WWe push was 100% rejected by fans got over because he mostly got himself over with a unique promo style.  HHH was probably the least over mega-pushed guy in history and was given multiple opportunities to "make it" and given wins over every top guy before Mick Foley came along and bumped & sold his ass off to get HHH over.

 

In today's landscape, WWE is doing a good job of creating new stars.  Daniel Bryan, The Shield (Roman Reigns will be a big star), Bray Wyatt, AJ Lee - all "young" guys who have gotten over.  Punk was a non-typical WWE guy who was pushed and got over.  Cesaro is getting over (though his current angle and pairing with Heyman seems to be confusing fans).

 

HHH's mandate that development workers have real angles and plans laid out before being brought up is the correct way to move forward.

 

But Im a big supporter of nostalgia and with the Network, I think it makes sense to use past guys.  Batista is here to help get guys over while drawing money himself.  Same with HHH.  New Age Outlaws had a strong and short run (perfect in many ways).  Kevin Nash, Booker T etc, could all be used like that.  RVD, same thing.

 

Some of the most popular Network content (to WWE's surprise) is WCW content (their WCW DVD was a top seller also, same with Goldberg DVD).  There is a strong apetite for the past especially stuff that isnt readily available or pushed out (ie. on multiple WWE-centric DVD releases).  I think there is a market for Sting.

 

I'd expect to see Jeff Hardy and Kurt Angle back this year too.

[Brandon]

In the 90's Vince simply copied ECW and Paul Heyman.

Paul let the wrestlers create there own persona and used more adult and realistic characters with an edge to them.

Vince created Knuckleball Schwartz, Garbage Man, Flex Kavana, Flash Funk and many other garbage outdated personalities. He was so out of touch he can thank ECW for saving his butt.

[The Unknown Poster]

In the 90's Vince simply copied ECW and Paul Heyman.

Paul let the wrestlers create there own persona and used more adult and realistic characters with an edge to them.

Vince created Knuckleball Schwartz, Garbage Man, Flex Kavana, Flash Funk and many other garbage outdated personalities. He was so out of touch he can thank ECW for saving his butt.

And his son for pushing him in that direction.  And Vince Russo (I know, I know) for the cutting edge (at the time) "Crash TV" concept that changed how wrestling was presented as a Television property.

[iso_55]

The Attitude Era was WWE's golden days. Look at the **** that was on last night involving the 2 midgets in that tag team match. I mean, then you add Emma, Santino & Fandango in garbage career killer matches. Even the demented masked Kane is crap. Last week he was Corporate Kane getting the crap kicked out of him by The Shield. Now, he's the unstoppable evil monster? That's why people don't watch... 

[Nasty Nate]

The Attitude Era was WWE's golden days. Look at the **** that was on last night involving the 2 midgets in that tag team match. I mean, then you add Emma, Santino & Fandango in garbage career killer matches. Even the demented masked Kane is crap. Last week he was Corporate Kane getting the crap kicked out of him by The Shield. Now, he's the unstoppable evil monster? That's why people don't watch... 

Last nite was not a hallmark evening for Vince McMahon and the WWE. Even Good "Ol Stephanie had something up her sleeve - trying to screw up Daniel Bryan's new wife, Brie Bella and having Kane do the old trick of coming up thru hell (aka the ring mattress). A throwaway episode if there ever was. Even the Austrian Strong Man taking on Jack Swagger for the 40th straight time. 

[Goalie]

 

The Attitude Era was WWE's golden days. Look at the **** that was on last night involving the 2 midgets in that tag team match. I mean, then you add Emma, Santino & Fandango in garbage career killer matches. Even the demented masked Kane is crap. Last week he was Corporate Kane getting the crap kicked out of him by The Shield. Now, he's the unstoppable evil monster? That's why people don't watch... 

Last nite was not a hallmark evening for Vince McMahon and the WWE. Even Good "Ol Stephanie had something up her sleeve - trying to screw up Daniel Bryan's new wife, Brie Bella and having Kane do the old trick of coming up thru hell (aka the ring mattress). A throwaway episode if there ever was. Even the Austrian Strong Man taking on Jack Swagger for the 40th straight time. 

 

swiss superman cesaro you mean? Well that makes sense that story, i mean they were former tag partners just about a month ago. Cesaro just joined heyman recently. That feud makes sense. Last nights was awesome, the opening was hella cool. bray wyatt and the choir kids, that was a cool thing to see.

[Nasty Nate]

 

 

The Attitude Era was WWE's golden days. Look at the **** that was on last night involving the 2 midgets in that tag team match. I mean, then you add Emma, Santino & Fandango in garbage career killer matches. Even the demented masked Kane is crap. Last week he was Corporate Kane getting the crap kicked out of him by The Shield. Now, he's the unstoppable evil monster? That's why people don't watch... 

Last nite was not a hallmark evening for Vince McMahon and the WWE. Even Good "Ol Stephanie had something up her sleeve - trying to screw up Daniel Bryan's new wife, Brie Bella and having Kane do the old trick of coming up thru hell (aka the ring mattress). A throwaway episode if there ever was. Even the Austrian Strong Man taking on Jack Swagger for the 40th straight time. 

 

swiss superman cesaro you mean? Well that makes sense that story, i mean they were former tag partners just about a month ago. Cesaro just joined heyman recently. That feud makes sense. Last nights was awesome, the opening was hella cool. bray wyatt and the choir kids, that was a cool thing to see.

 

Darn - I missed Bray's choir..... that woulda taken it from a C- ep to a B+ just for Wyatt.

[The Unknown Poster]

The Attitude Era was WWE's golden days. Look at the **** that was on last night involving the 2 midgets in that tag team match. I mean, then you add Emma, Santino & Fandango in garbage career killer matches. Even the demented masked Kane is crap. Last week he was Corporate Kane getting the crap kicked out of him by The Shield. Now, he's the unstoppable evil monster? That's why people don't watch...

Looks like the second best rating of the year last night. People do watch. A lot of people watching the attitude era now hate it.

I'm with you as far as some of the idiotic filler like Santino. Though I do like Emma since she can work and is a different look than the other girls.

I also don't mind the midgets. The kids like it. That's what's it's for. And to sell Merch.

I've always been a Kane fan. That guy just managed to take every chickens&@t idea and turns it into chicken salad.

[Nasty Nate]

 

The Attitude Era was WWE's golden days. Look at the **** that was on last night involving the 2 midgets in that tag team match. I mean, then you add Emma, Santino & Fandango in garbage career killer matches. Even the demented masked Kane is crap. Last week he was Corporate Kane getting the crap kicked out of him by The Shield. Now, he's the unstoppable evil monster? That's why people don't watch...

Looks like the second best rating of the year last night. People do watch. A lot of people watching the attitude era now hate it.

I'm with you as far as some of the idiotic filler like Santino. Though I do like Emma since she can work and is a different look than the other girls.

I also don't mind the midgets. The kids like it. That's what's it's for. And to sell Merch.

I've always been a Kane fan. That guy just managed to take every chickens&@t idea and turns it into chicken salad.

 

Kane is the ultimate house-worker. A guy the McMahons can trust to do anything they ask. Never revolts, never questions. Over the last 20 years he's their best overall worker. Taker a close 2nd cuz Taker did more high shows but far less low shows.

 

Unfortunately, Kane's last run he was scripted to lay down for some up 'n coming young stars and essentially got buried.

 

Perhaps its time for one last big run for the The Big Red Monster - one that sees him scooping up a WWE title, even for a short transitional run.

[The Unknown Poster]

There was actually talk of Kane retiring a few years ago when they brought in that young guy (Drew Hankinson sounds familar) and gave him the Kane gimmick.  It flopped and Kane ended up back as Kane.  He's one of the best outside-the-bell performers so I could see him sticking for awhile though he has hinted at wanting to get into politics.  He certainly should have the money to retire if he wants (and guys who leave on good terms are never really gone).  If Taker wants a couple more matches, they might have to be Brothers of Destruction tags at this point.  Sting/Kane might be okay to sort of satisfy those people that really want Sting/Taker (including Sting).

[Nasty Nate]

Too bad Undertaker is pretty much exhausted and shot. A Kane - Taker combo would be awesome, if even for a few weeks!

[Goalie]

There was actually talk of Kane retiring a few years ago when they brought in that young guy (Drew Hankinson sounds familar) and gave him the Kane gimmick.  It flopped and Kane ended up back as Kane.  He's one of the best outside-the-bell performers so I could see him sticking for awhile though he has hinted at wanting to get into politics.  He certainly should have the money to retire if he wants (and guys who leave on good terms are never really gone).  If Taker wants a couple more matches, they might have to be Brothers of Destruction tags at this point.  Sting/Kane might be okay to sort of satisfy those people that really want Sting/Taker (including Sting).

drew hankinson was festus in wwe and doc in tna.

[Goalie]

 

There was actually talk of Kane retiring a few years ago when they brought in that young guy (Drew Hankinson sounds familar) and gave him the Kane gimmick.  It flopped and Kane ended up back as Kane.  He's one of the best outside-the-bell performers so I could see him sticking for awhile though he has hinted at wanting to get into politics.  He certainly should have the money to retire if he wants (and guys who leave on good terms are never really gone).  If Taker wants a couple more matches, they might have to be Brothers of Destruction tags at this point.  Sting/Kane might be okay to sort of satisfy those people that really want Sting/Taker (including Sting).

drew hankinson was festus in wwe and doc in tna. he was also the fake kane in wwe for the 3 weeks they went with that.