Retired Detroit Red Wings defenseman Nicklas Lidstrom said former Pittsburgh Penguins center Mario Lemieux was the best player he played against during his career, according to a report in Swedish paper Expressen.

"It was all about Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux and Steve Yzerman," said Lidstrom, who will be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in November. "Lemieux had an incredible reach and some really good skills with his stick. Gretzky had that too, but he made all the players around him better. Individually, I would say Lemieux was the better player."

I hate this thread on HFB every time it comes up. Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time, to date, and it's not even close...

Lidstrom played against Lemieux when Lemieux was in his prime. He didn't get to play against 80's Gretzky. Gretzky is the best player of all time, if you want to make the point of Lemieux being the better player in the 90's then yes thats probably true, but Gretzky dominated the game like few others in professional sports ever have.

Just to show how much Gretzky dominated his peers..

 

Everyone who won an NHL scoring title by more than 15% is included in the following table: 
 

year player margin percentage 1987 Wayne Gretzky 183-108 41.0 1984 Wayne Gretzky 205-126 38.5 1983 Wayne Gretzky 196-124 36.7 1985 Wayne Gretzky 208-135 35.1 1986 Wayne Gretzky 212-141 34.4 1982 Wayne Gretzky 212-147 30.7 1941 Bill Cowley 62-44 29.0 1953 Gordie Howe 95-71 25.3 1928 Howie Morenz 51-39 23.5 1951 Gordie Howe 86-66 23.3 1973 Phil Esposito 130-104 20.0 1952 Gordie Howe 86-69 19.8 1991 Wayne Gretzky 163-131 19.6 1966 Bobby Hull 97-78 19.6 1981 Wayne Gretzky 164-135 17.7 1967 Stan Mikita 97-80 17.5 1935 Charlie Conacher 57-47 17.5 1970 Bobby Orr 120-99 17.5 1954 Gordie Howe 81-67 17.3 1940 Milt Schmidt 52-43 17.3 2014 Sidney Crosby 104-87 16.3 1974 Phil Esposito 145-122 15.9 1999 Jaromir Jagr 127-107 15.7 1989 Mario Lemieux 199-168 15.6 1922 Punch Broadbent 46-39 15.2 1919 Newsy Lalonde 33-28 15.2 1930 Cooney Weiland 73-62 15.1 1969 Phil Esposito 126-107 15.1

Notes:

• 8 of Gretzky's 10 Art Rosses were by more than 15%
• 4 of Howe's 6 Art Rosses were by more than 15%
• 3 of Esposito's 5 Art Rosses were by more than 15%
• One-timers before World War 2: Cowley, Morenz, Conacher, Schmidt, Broadbent, Lalonde, Weiland
• One-timers after World War 2: Hull, Mikita, Orr, Jagr, Lemieux
• It was obviously easier to lead the league by a higher percentage before WW2, when the seasons were shorter and seasonal totals were lower.
• Lemieux won 6 Art Rosses, but only 1 by a 15%+ margin. Two reasons: Gretzky & injuries.
• Teammates who led the league in scoring by wide margins in back-to-back years: Schmidt/Cowley, Hull/Mikita, Orr/Esposito

You know what, I can completely understand why a defenceman would put Mario higher. He had a better physical package than Gretzky did so individually he could probably beat you just by being big and strong. Gretzky wasn't ever going to do that. 

 

However Gretzky being the smartest player to ever put on a pair of skates and pick up a stick meant that none of that mattered one lick because he would just come up with some way to embarrass you that no one else ever thought of. Gretzky is just plain old the best player ever. He changed the game so much. No one has dominated the way he did and I don't think we'll ever see anyone dominate to that level again. 

• Lemieux won 6 Art Rosses, but only 1 by a 15%+ margin. Two reasons: Gretzky & injuries.

 

Supporting casts also played a major role. In 88-89 Lemieux put up 199 points and his linemates were Rob Brown & Bob Errey. With Lemieux Brown was a 40 goal scorer; without him he was an AHLer. By the time Lemieux had a decent supporting cast he couldn't stay healthy.

 

Put a healthy Lemieux on those 80s Oilers teams and he'd hold all of the season scoring records. I think winning the Art Ross after missing 1/4 of a season with cancer is one of the most impressive feats in hockey history. IMO, Lemieux was the most talented player ever, but Gretzky gets the title of greatest ever due to his records and influence on the game.

He was also better than Gretzky at the 87 Canada Cup.

 

• Lemieux won 6 Art Rosses, but only 1 by a 15%+ margin. Two reasons: Gretzky & injuries.

 

Supporting casts also played a major role. In 88-89 Lemieux put up 199 points and his linemates were Rob Brown & Bob Errey. With Lemieux Brown was a 40 goal scorer; without him he was an AHLer. By the time Lemieux had a decent supporting cast he couldn't stay healthy.

 

Put a healthy Lemieux on those 80s Oilers teams and he'd hold all of the season scoring records. I think winning the Art Ross after missing 1/4 of a season with cancer is one of the most impressive feats in hockey history. IMO, Lemieux was the most talented player ever, but Gretzky gets the title of greatest ever due to his records and influence on the game.

 

Like having Semenko as his linemate? Come on now let's not blow things out of proportion here. Gretzky was so far ahead of his Oiler team mates in scoring it's laughable to even think about it. 

 

 

• Lemieux won 6 Art Rosses, but only 1 by a 15%+ margin. Two reasons: Gretzky & injuries.

 

Supporting casts also played a major role. In 88-89 Lemieux put up 199 points and his linemates were Rob Brown & Bob Errey. With Lemieux Brown was a 40 goal scorer; without him he was an AHLer. By the time Lemieux had a decent supporting cast he couldn't stay healthy.

 

Put a healthy Lemieux on those 80s Oilers teams and he'd hold all of the season scoring records. I think winning the Art Ross after missing 1/4 of a season with cancer is one of the most impressive feats in hockey history. IMO, Lemieux was the most talented player ever, but Gretzky gets the title of greatest ever due to his records and influence on the game.

 

Like having Semenko as his linemate? Come on now let's not blow things out of proportion here. Gretzky was so far ahead of his Oiler team mates in scoring it's laughable to even think about it. 

 

He was clearly the best player on that team, I'd never argue that. Nobody can reasonably argue Gretzky didn't have much better players around him than Lemieux when they were both in their primes though.

 

Check out this lineup from his 199 point season and tell me it's comparable to any of those Oiler teams. He led his team in scoring by 84 points.

Good fight but who would you rather have today? In todays NHL people would actually hit Gretzky and no one would let him be alone behind the net.

I think Wayne is the greatest of all time. I think Mario is the most talented of all time. Imagine Mario not being struck down by cancer and back injuries. He would have beat Wayne's records for goals and points.

He was also better than Gretzky at the 87 Canada Cup.

I've always thought Hawerchuk was the best player on the ice during that final game against Russia.

What a team, almost as good as the team for the 76 Canada Cup.

 

Here are the D from the 76 team...

Orr

Lapointe

Potvin

Robinson

Savard

Vadnais

Jimmy Watson

 

The forwards are equally impressive.

I think Wayne is the greatest of all time. I think Mario is the most talented of all time. Imagine Mario not being struck down by cancer and back injuries. He would have beat Wayne's records for goals and points.

No he wouldn't. Even had he remained healthy.

 

Gretzky:

 Most Professional Goals in a Career (1,072)

Most Assists in a Career (1,963)

His career assists top every-ones career point records.

These will stand probably forever. And talking about ANYONE being able to surpass them is pretty much a moot point.

Here’s a stat to put Wayne’s 163 assists — which came in the 1985-86 season — into perspective: the player who finished that year second in points, the Penguins’ Mario Lemieux, recorded 141 points.

and people who say that Gretz would get killed in today's NHL aren't giving enough credit to just how smart the guy was. That's the biggest thing...he's the smartest guy to ever play the game, bar none. He always found a way, and even in today's game, he'd find a way. Every time...

You can't say for sure because injuries happen etc but if you take mario's PPG and extrapolate that over Wayne's games played it's very very close.

But I was mostly referring to season records.