Yourface
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Posts posted by Yourface
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MB's offence is based on standing in the pocket and delivering the football. His is a game management style where we dink and dunk down the field and stretch it when we can. willy and brohm are "built" to run this offence.. Hence, 1 and 2. Marve can definitely be the change of pace guy who moves the sticks with moxy and ad libbing when the offence is stagnant BUT the whole concept is not designed with his skills in place..
Maybe one day the offence will be retooled if it's deemed willy and brohm are not the answer but I assume that would also mean MB's departure.
Marve's style of play really shouldn't matter. The priority for this team should be to win, and Marve gives the team a much better chance at winning than Brohm.
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I'll take the pros words over the Joes anyday of the week and twice on Sundays. This is what i'll never understand on these fan forums, we are fans, that's what we are, yeah we have some knowledge but, our knowledge combined is nothing compared to what the guys who actually do it for a living have. I think sometimes, we may forget that and think we have all the answers when in reality, we have very little answers.
We base our thoughts on what? 10 15 30 plays? The pros base their thoughts on hours upon hours upon hours of film and practice reps.. videos, all sorts of things, just cuz a guy goes out there and moves the ball, doesn't mean he's doing what he's supposed to do...
15 20 30 plays... vs hours upon hours of film and practice .
Well that's very naive of you... I understand being optimistic that the coaching staff makes the right decisions, but that's not always how it works.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with questioning the management's decisions, not one thing.
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Marve has gotten the garbage time in pre-season bro, he's playing against guys who are no longer on the teams he played against. To suggest Marve played in more demanding situations is complete BS really...
Marve has played against the other teams 3rd stringers for the most part, he's been the qb that got the reps in the 3rd and 4th quarters, more so the 4th quarter. As a matter of fact this past week, he was the last guy in the game playing against guys who were just cut by Hamilton.
In the regular season he played in much more difficult situations, and no one can dispute that. The competition that Marve and Brohm faced in the preseason are probably about equal.
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... And Marve did make good throws from the pocket after that. In fact he showed more of an ability to throw the ball than Brohm did.
Marve gives the Bombers a much better chance to win than Brohm. That's why he should be the primary backup.
You're funny.
After all that has just been written regarding Marve and the reason he is still #3, you proceed to follow the same line of reasoning.
Makes me think you don't chew your food before swallowing either.
Well excuse me for wanting the Bombers to win more than anything. The words of the coaching staff aren't flawless you know.... Unlike some of you, I realize that O'Shea and Bellefeuille have their biases too.
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O'Shea said they want Marve to stick around in the pocket for an extra second rather than run. IMO that's missing the point of a QB who can run like Marve can. As long as he's getting first downs, I don't care much how he gets them. That being said, I hope we don't see much of Marve this season because that means both Willy and Brohm have failed or are injured.
He needs to learn how to pass. It's just way too easy to defend him now. After a couple runs, Hamilton started using a delayed blitz, filling all the gaps up front and daring Marve to make a good throw from the pocket. That is what will happen if he doesn't progress, everyone knows what's coming.
Watching Marve in the TO game (and I still am mad at TSN for not showing the Hamilton game) I just don't get the tag on him that he can't pass. Ken Ploen wasn't exactly the prettiest passer either. Marve made a beauty pass for a TD in the TO game to Tuinei. He's no Ricky Ray, I'll give you that, but he's also no Tim Tebow either. Or Justin Goltz. He gets the ball there a lot of the time. What I see now is that he just needs playing time to get the timing down. Then look out. He could tear up this league, Tom Clements style, if given a chance.
Agreed. Through all of their preseason + regular season games so far, Marve has a better completion percentage than Brohm (56% vs. 54%), and that's despite Marve playing in much more demanding situations.
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O'Shea said they want Marve to stick around in the pocket for an extra second rather than run. IMO that's missing the point of a QB who can run like Marve can. As long as he's getting first downs, I don't care much how he gets them. That being said, I hope we don't see much of Marve this season because that means both Willy and Brohm have failed or are injured.
He needs to learn how to pass. It's just way too easy to defend him now. After a couple runs, Hamilton started using a delayed blitz, filling all the gaps up front and daring Marve to make a good throw from the pocket. That is what will happen if he doesn't progress, everyone knows what's coming.
... And Marve did make good throws from the pocket after that. In fact he showed more of an ability to throw the ball than Brohm did.
Marve gives the Bombers a much better chance to win than Brohm. That's why he should be the primary backup.
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Marve with another fairly solid game tonight. I'll be surprised if he isn't the primary backup to start the year.
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Marve has the opportunity, he just isn't stepping up and taking advantage of it.
Why does that make us want to move him up the ladder in the QB order?
Problem is unlike Willy and Brohm, Marve isn't naturally a pocket QB so he has a bigger learning curve to overcome to fit in to Marcel's scheme. I'm not sure it is in the best interest of the Bombers or Marve to try to convert him to this role as I prefer the flexibility he offers with his motion when the need arises to use him.
Watching the beat down cement foot Sunseri took from the Esks. last night (5 sacks) indicates how vulnerable a pocket passer can be against certain D schemes. Brett Smith who played prior to Sunseri was able to scramble to avoid the rush, looked good and was not sacked even once.
Even with an improved O-line whoever the Bombers play has to be able to evacuate the pocket in order to succeed against a team pinning it's ears back to kill the QB. They will not survive the game otherwise. Hopefully Willy can adapt as the Bombers play the Esks. in week five and it could get ugly.
Doesn't matter what kind of QB is behind center when a OL is playing as bad as the guys Saskatchewan had in during most of the 3rd and 4th quarters last night. Plus Edmonton started blitzing like crazy with many experienced CFL players still on their D against guys on Sask who won't be in the CFL long. On several of those sacks Sunseri was scrambling.
Leaving the pocket early actually makes it a lot easier for a blitz to affect a QB, as counter intuitive as that might seem.
It's not an either or situation though. There's a reason why basically all of the great QB's in recent CFL history can throw effectively from the pocket and move effectively within the structure of the offense and at times when they need to. It's what beats defenses consistently regardless of how they scheme. Marve has a long way to go with his brain and arm to even be a serviceable QB.
Marve has been a highly serviceable and effective QB so far, regardless of his style of play. Brohm has a longer way to go, plus he's older.
So you'd feel comfortable going into this season with Marve as your starting QB if you were running a team based on what you've seen from him to this point? Versus say having a guy like Kevin Glenn or Drew Tate, guys I would call serviceable.
Haven't seen enough of him to say that I'd feel comfortable with him as the starter, but I'd feel much more comfortable with him than Brohm.
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Marve has the opportunity, he just isn't stepping up and taking advantage of it.
Why does that make us want to move him up the ladder in the QB order?
Problem is unlike Willy and Brohm, Marve isn't naturally a pocket QB so he has a bigger learning curve to overcome to fit in to Marcel's scheme. I'm not sure it is in the best interest of the Bombers or Marve to try to convert him to this role as I prefer the flexibility he offers with his motion when the need arises to use him.
Watching the beat down cement foot Sunseri took from the Esks. last night (5 sacks) indicates how vulnerable a pocket passer can be against certain D schemes. Brett Smith who played prior to Sunseri was able to scramble to avoid the rush, looked good and was not sacked even once.
Even with an improved O-line whoever the Bombers play has to be able to evacuate the pocket in order to succeed against a team pinning it's ears back to kill the QB. They will not survive the game otherwise. Hopefully Willy can adapt as the Bombers play the Esks. in week five and it could get ugly.
Doesn't matter what kind of QB is behind center when a OL is playing as bad as the guys Saskatchewan had in during most of the 3rd and 4th quarters last night. Plus Edmonton started blitzing like crazy with many experienced CFL players still on their D against guys on Sask who won't be in the CFL long. On several of those sacks Sunseri was scrambling.
Leaving the pocket early actually makes it a lot easier for a blitz to affect a QB, as counter intuitive as that might seem.
It's not an either or situation though. There's a reason why basically all of the great QB's in recent CFL history can throw effectively from the pocket and move effectively within the structure of the offense and at times when they need to. It's what beats defenses consistently regardless of how they scheme. Marve has a long way to go with his brain and arm to even be a serviceable QB.
Marve has been a highly serviceable and effective QB so far, regardless of his style of play. Brohm has a longer way to go, plus he's older.
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For a guy who LOVES Marve so dearly, you sure are willing to put his career on the path to failure if you think it would have been intelligent for him to be the backup last year as a pro rookie.
I highly doubt that another game's worth of reps would have hurt him in any way. If anything I believe it would have helped him grow.
Hindsight doesn't mean anything. Having a pro rookie as your number 2 QB behind a guy in his first year as a starter would've been lunacy.
You may be right and I may be ignorant.
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For a guy who LOVES Marve so dearly, you sure are willing to put his career on the path to failure if you think it would have been intelligent for him to be the backup last year as a pro rookie.
I highly doubt that another game's worth of reps would have hurt him in any way. If anything I believe it would have helped him grow.
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Marve has the opportunity, he just isn't stepping up and taking advantage of it.
Why does that make us want to move him up the ladder in the QB order?
I'm not sure that he has had the opportunity to be honest. Brohm has been the de facto backup since the very beginning, for no particular reason other than experience maybe. If everyone had a fair shot at the backup position last year, Marve absolutely would have won it out of the gate.
Not only was Marve much better in practice at last year's TC, he was also a lot better in the preseason, and no one can dispute that. Brohm and Hall were pretty much neck-and-neck at last year's camp.
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Marve has the opportunity, he just isn't stepping up and taking advantage of it.
Why does that make us want to move him up the ladder in the QB order?
I'm not sure that he has had the opportunity to be honest. Brohm has been the de facto backup since the very beginning, for no particular reason other than experience maybe. If everyone had a fair shot at the backup position last year, Marve absolutely would have won it out of the gate.
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No he hasn't been better than brohm at all. Do people think a QB who runs every other play is really sustainable? It's not. He's 3rd string for a reason and until he learns to read a d and complete a pass more consistently he will stay 3rd and I like Marve too but he is not better than brohm right now.
Is the objective in football not to move the chains and score points? Marve has been able to do so on a consistent basis, and thus, has been the more effective QB. Through all preseason and regular season games so far, Brohm has a completion percentage of 55% to Marve's 51%... Does the 4% difference really mean that much when the former played in perfectly manageable situations and has no other dimensions to his game? I think not.
Also, regarding practice reports (which is what we were talking about in the first place)... It's hard to tell who's being truthful lately (especially with all the bickering back and forth). Two days ago, gbill wouldn't stop raving about Brohm while neglecting to say a word about Marve. Meanwhile, another poster at TEP singled out Marve as the standout QB that day, while Twitter suggested that he was having a great day as well. The next day, gbill again stated how good Brohm is while another poster at TEP said that Marve was even better.
The thing is we all have our biases and people see what they want to see sometimes.
Marve 100% struggled today. And read my full report from yesterday (there's more that just the initial post), Brohm had his ups and downs, along with Marve and Portis. Willy is clearly the best and after that they all have their warts. But the more practice I see, the more clear it is that Brohm is the best of the rest.
I don't doubt that... And btw, I enjoy your daily camp reports as I haven't been able to get out there this year. But the truth is, a lot of people see things differently than you do, including myself. I went to a few practices last year, and Marve looked a lot better than Brohm... He was more mobile, more accurate and more of a playmaker. I'm sure that some people would still rank Marve above Brohm, even based on the last three days of practice.
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No he hasn't been better than brohm at all. Do people think a QB who runs every other play is really sustainable? It's not. He's 3rd string for a reason and until he learns to read a d and complete a pass more consistently he will stay 3rd and I like Marve too but he is not better than brohm right now.
Is the objective in football not to move the chains and score points? Marve has been able to do so on a consistent basis, and thus, has been the more effective QB. Through all preseason and regular season games so far, Brohm has a completion percentage of 55% to Marve's 51%... Does the 4% difference really mean that much when the former played in perfectly manageable situations and has no other dimensions to his game? I think not.
Also, regarding practice reports (which is what we were talking about in the first place)... It's hard to tell who's being truthful lately (especially with all the bickering back and forth). Two days ago, gbill wouldn't stop raving about Brohm while neglecting to say a word about Marve. Meanwhile, another poster at TEP singled out Marve as the standout QB that day, while Twitter suggested that he was having a great day as well. The next day, gbill again stated how good Brohm is while another poster at TEP said that Marve was even better.
The thing is we all have our biases and people see what they want to see sometimes.
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Who actually believes that Marve is better than Willy though (except that one poster at TEP)? I mean... I would like to see him get reps and I'd get excited at the opportunity to see him play but I don't think anyone expects him to be better than Willy. Marve still has much to prove.
Marve has not really stepped up, according to reports, and I thought he would do better as camp rolled along. His saving grace is that the guy behind him is doing worse.
You mean according to gbill's last two reports? Marve has been better than Brohm much more often than vice versa.
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Who actually believes that Marve is better than Willy though (except that one poster at TEP)? I mean... I would like to see him get reps and I'd get excited at the opportunity to see him play but I don't think anyone expects him to be better than Willy. Marve still has much to prove.
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Report from "Jockitch" at TEP:
"due to previous medical issues was not able to attend ........ today was my 1st exposureGet my complaint out of the way; NO Roster list at the gate ....... told due to all the potential additions & moves ........ I cry ..... lazy, lazy, lazyGround level very tough to get reads on action when groups break up & spread out, however........Liked Marve a lot, Willy would have been sacked a few times ......... lot of fumbles by rec's during a span ....... guessing I saw at least 7 drops on perfect throws#15 Clemons had a good day, #23 Da'rel Scott is a force when he runs, early drop by Denmark but a bit later a beauty from Willy for a nice long TD.#27 Sherman & #47 Bas & #10 Hurl I thought, were quite involved, #29 Waggoner can sure keep a receiver out of the play, #55 Westerman has a motor,hard to pick up the trench work but, caught Bryant, Chungh & I thought Goosen doing wellCouple of picks but alas cannot remember by whom.BTW; saw Addison Richards with no pads just doing hand drills & the jug. Moore & Kohlert were also spectators." -
Ehh... I'm not a fan of your evaluation because the QBs don't play much of a part in the effectiveness of the running back. I prefer to look at plays in which the QBs are involved (meaning yards-per-attempt amalgamated with yards-per-carry):
Marve: 6.92
Brohm: 5.18
Portis: 5.3
Also, you can't ignore Marve's effectiveness in the red zone.
Imagine that, you're not a fan of an evaluation that basically tears apart your entire bias towards Marve. And this number you came up with? What is the point of that? It honestly means nothing.
It means that Marve is effective at moving the offense.
No. It doesn't.
In your mind, maybe. In reality, not even close to what it means.
It is a means of measuring effectiveness, absolutely. The more yardage a QB can muster, the better he stands a chance at winning the game.
Look at the sample size. Your stats are meaningless and totally non-predictive. I'm all for breaking down stats and looking at them, I think it's fun, but trying to draw the broad conclusions that you are is just foolish. You're pointing at a comparison of 12 plays per QB and trying to tell everyone it means something. It doesn't.
I agree, the sample size is too small to draw many conclusions from it. I'm just trying to say that Marve has earned the chance to be the primary backup.
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Ehh... I'm not a fan of your evaluation because the QBs don't play much of a part in the effectiveness of the running back. I prefer to look at plays in which the QBs are involved (meaning yards-per-attempt amalgamated with yards-per-carry):
Marve: 6.92
Brohm: 5.18
Portis: 5.3
Also, you can't ignore Marve's effectiveness in the red zone.
because it doesn't fit your narrative of hyping up Marve above all others. You trot out the same stats every time but they are equally as limited as this evaluation here.
Marve has been much more effective at moving the offense and scoring points as I've shown multiple times already. The yards-per-drive stat doesn't mean anything when evaluating the effectiveness of a QB. You are better off isolating the plays in which he was directly involved.
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Ehh... I'm not a fan of your evaluation because the QBs don't play much of a part in the effectiveness of the running back. I prefer to look at plays in which the QBs are involved (meaning yards-per-attempt amalgamated with yards-per-carry):
Marve: 6.92
Brohm: 5.18
Portis: 5.3
Also, you can't ignore Marve's effectiveness in the red zone.
Imagine that, you're not a fan of an evaluation that basically tears apart your entire bias towards Marve. And this number you came up with? What is the point of that? It honestly means nothing.
It means that Marve is effective at moving the offense.
No. It doesn't.
In your mind, maybe. In reality, not even close to what it means.
It is a means of measuring effectiveness, absolutely. The more yardage a QB can muster, the better he stands a chance at winning the game.
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Ehh... I'm not a fan of your evaluation because the QBs don't play much of a part in the effectiveness of the running back. I prefer to look at plays in which the QBs are involved (meaning yards-per-attempt amalgamated with yards-per-carry):
Marve: 6.92
Brohm: 5.18
Portis: 5.3
Also, you can't ignore Marve's effectiveness in the red zone.
First off, this is not an evaluation, merely a statistical breakdown of the offensive drives. I would advise against putting too much faith in any of these numbers. There are a lot of factors to consider, such as supporting cast, opposing defence, and playcalling. I definitely wouldn't evaluate the effectiveness of a QB based on my numbers or yours. I just thought it would be interesting to look at.
Misleading numbers are misleading, that's all I'm saying.
I hope you realize that yours are just as misleading, that's all I'm saying.
It's not be-all-end-all stat, but it's certainly more telling than the numbers you pulled up.
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Ehh... I'm not a fan of your evaluation because the QBs don't play much of a part in the effectiveness of the running back. I prefer to look at plays in which the QBs are involved (meaning yards-per-attempt amalgamated with yards-per-carry):
Marve: 6.92
Brohm: 5.18
Portis: 5.3
Also, you can't ignore Marve's effectiveness in the red zone.
Imagine that, you're not a fan of an evaluation that basically tears apart your entire bias towards Marve. And this number you came up with? What is the point of that? It honestly means nothing.
It means that Marve is effective at moving the offense.
Odds and Sods.....X2 Game, Hamilton at Winnipeg
in Blue Bomber Discussion
Posted
Maybe, maybe not, but the point is that Marve has earned the opportunity to be the backup. He has effectively moved the offense in limited reps while Brohm has shown a lot more bad than good (in practice as well as in game action). How are we ever going to know what we have in Marve if we don't give him a decent amount of playing time?