TrueBlue4ever

Let's say for the moment, for argument's sake, that this is not a joke. How would this look? Trading Laine would be a seismic event, no doubt. And were this the old NHL or a Toronto or New York team, this is never happening. The fallout is too great. But we are not in Toronto or New York, and this sure isn't the old NHL. The salary cap era and the reality of small market hockey in Winnipeg dictates that. Don't scoff, the Jets freely admit that at best they can compete as a mid-cap team only - they will never push the upper end of the cap except for a once in a generation run for the Cup, and even then, they won't chase free agents to do it, they'll sacrifice draft and develop for a trade deadline acquisition - they'll chase a Paul Stastny short-term rental but never bid for a John Tavares (or Paul Stastny, for that matter) long term free agent grab as a building block. So why trade a budding superstar? Well, perhaps the track record of "lone superstar" vs. "complete team" negates that star's impact. Ovechkin has his Cup, so that is a ringing endorsement for the superstar route, but let's not forget that prior to finally breaking through after 13 years, he was largely seen as the player who, despite great personal numbers, couldn't win the big one. Washington was synonymous with playoff chokes before last year. The champions were more complete teams with multiple stars (Pittsburgh with Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel, and Fleury, Chicago with Toews, Kane, Seaboook and Keith, or Detroit with Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Datsyuk) and strong cheap support, or a team concept like Boston or LA. So with Wheeler, Scheifele, Byfuglien and Hellebuyck already fitting the "star" mode (or at least the star-sized salaries), do we have room for another? We have all heard that this team cannot stay together in its current iteration due to pending contracts. Is Laine worth more to the team than keeping Kyle Connor? Of course he is. Roslovic? No question. Trouba? Harder to say since the positions they play affect their respective values, but for argument's sake say yes, especially given everyone's fear that Trouba is going anyway. Morrissey? Again, positioning makes it tough to compare apples to oranges, but I think we can agree that Laine can carry this Jets team more than Morrissey can. So debate over, right? Wrong. The debate isn't Laine over any one of these players, it's keeping Laine at the expense of losing MORE THAN ONE of those players. Keep Laine over both Morrissey and Trouba, I say this team is demonstrably worse off. Laine vs. either d-man and both of Connor and Roslovic, or Lowry and/or Tanev and maybe a future free agent signing? I don't think the theory that locking in to Laine for $10 million plus for the next 8 years wipes out our options for building those secondary pieces is that far-fetched. Is Laine the first choice to go, then? We have Scheif and Ehlers on extremely cap-friendly contracts, so they would be equally movable. And Trouba would be a big asset for any other team as well (Morrissey too but less perceived value right now to the average fan), so does it need to be Laine? Well, are you giving up Scheifele to keep Laine? Does Ehlers attract anywhere near the trade value of Laine? Are Wheeler, Little or Byfuglien going to be as attractive as trade bait given their respective ages and contract sizes? And if you lose Trouba and/or Morrissey at the expense of Laine, is the team worse off as a net effect given the defensive deficiencies we would face? The big con to the trade is marketing - Laine is a brand, and he will be worth a lot of money to the franchise as the face of the league (chicks dig the long ball, they say - scoring sells in the NHL, and Brett Hull was much more fun to watch than Adam Oates). But if the bottom line is winning, maybe the superstar trade for the building blocks of a powerhouse team is better. Dallas flipped Hershel Walker for 6 players and earned 3 Super Bowls as a result - Minnesota, not so much. Philly went all in to get Eric Lindros and parlayed it into a sweep at the hands of the Red Wings in 1995, otherwise no glory. The Nordiques, ahem, Avalanche, have 2 Cup banners to show for their efforts in that swap. In the cap era, I'm not sure one superstar can carry a whole team to ultimate glory when all other pieces are sacrificed to keep then there. Let's see if McDavid proves me wrong or right (for now I am winning that race). I'm not saying or advocating that we should trade Laine, but there is at least an argument to be made that it isn't a joke to consider it. The funny thing is we already have a current example of the result of re-signing Laine at all costs, and it is the Maple Leafs. Having married themselves to Tavares and his massive contract, Austin Matthews is no longer the centrepiece of this franchise, and I cannot fathom how those 2 plus Nylander, Marner and Morgan Reilly all stay together much longer once their ELCs run out, much less adding the woefully missing defensive pieces that are needed to round out the team.

One man's take: Greg Battle - best linebacker in Bomber history, inside or outside, bar none. This is a race for #2. So ,who would that be? Armstrong, Clark - good players on great teams, but not in contention. Burkholder, Doyle, Minnick, Walters - cannot judge them fairly as I did not see them play, but their reputations have not survived the years like other greats from the glory years to be considered in my mind. KD Williams - Bob Irving once said "He doesn't quite realize that he could own this town, if he plays his cards right". A supernova when he played with the gold teeth to match his bigger than life persona, but flamed out just as quickly. Not enough consistency to be in the all-time consideration over others. That leaves 4 options for me: Henoc Muamba - A bit too short a stay, maybe some sour grapes for his money grubbing behaviour when he got back from the NFL (and his downgrade in play to boot). He was destined for big things had he stayed, and his Canadian status in a traditionally American position earns him some street cred. Numbers just a shade below the others here, though. Paul Randolph - Big sack totals raise his profile, as does the fact he played on some big teams. Overshadowed by the likes of Battle, West and Payton when he played. Maybe he made them better with his pressure, maybe they aided in his big numbers. Suffers from invisibility because of his company on those teams, and also maybe his numbers are bloated by his longevity. Can't overlook that he never was nominated for an all-star or defensive POY award. That takes him out of the running for me, but an incredibly solid player nonetheless. Aaron Brown - When Ty Jones was the defensive star of the 1984 juggernaut team, Brown was the quiet leader. And he was regarded as better that year, as judged by his team nomination for defensive MOP (his second consecutive). By the slimmest of margins, maybe just because he had so much talent around him, I put him third behind..... Barrin Simpson - Back-to-back all-star seasons, runner-up for league defensive MOP in 2006, and those 2 monster tackle totals in '06 and '07 give him the inside track to line up beside Battle. He carried the defence during his time here with less support around him than others, so he gets my vote.

It is allowing multiple votes, but if you already voted previously you can't go back and add another vote. So if you just want to declare your second vote in the comments, that is fine.

So some names to consider, the older ones are tricky as they are outside wing (playing both ways) so I stand to be corrected if they are in the wrong position. Same goes if I mis-identify a defensive tackle. Jeff Nicklin, Bud Marquandt, Robert "Bud" Korchak, Bud Grant, Herb Gray, Bill Whisler, Jim Heighton, Pete Catan, Tony Norman, Michael Gray, Loyd Lewis, Daved Benefield, Tom Canada, Gavin Walls, Philip Hunt, Odell Willis, Jamaal Westerman This is an overly exhaustive list. Any player mentioned is listed simply because they received an all-star nod or team nomination at some point. Please feel free to say where you do not feel one is worthy of consideration, but try to explain your reasoning.

Yes, pick 2. The poll should allow multiple votes.

OK, a few hours left in the voting, but I am calling it (as I could have 2 minutes after the poll, went up). Jones and West will be the all-timers at outside linebacker, crushing the rest of the field. The inside (middle) linebacker poll is now up, you have a week to decide who suits up beside Greg Battle. I will put out a list of defensive end nominees later tonight, but please submit any names you wish.

Here are the bios. Choose 2 from this list: NOTE: Tackles were not recorded before 1987, so any tackle numbers will not be complete for players who played before that year. Sacks were not recorded before 1981, so any sack numbers will not be complete for players who played before that year. Antonio Armstrong – 25 games in 2 seasons (2000-01), 1 Int., 21 yards, 3 fumble recoveries, 52 yards , 1 TD, 98 tackles, 11 sacks, divisional all-star in 2000, team nominee for defensive MOP in 2000 Aaron Brown – 52 games in 4 seasons (1982-84, 1988), 7 Int., 91 yards, 1 TD, 3 fumble recoveries, -5 yards, 79 tackles in 1988, 16 sacks, divisional and CFL all-star in 1984, 2 time team nominee for defensive MOP (1983, 1984), 2 time Grey Cup champion (1984, 88) Greg Battle – 136 games in 9 seasons (1987-93, 1997-98), 22 Int., 241 yards, 1 TD, 21 fumble recoveries, 248 yards, 3 TD, 587 tackles, 21 sacks, 100+ tackles in 3 consecutive seasons (1989-91), 3 time divisional all-star (1989-91), 2 time CFL all-star (1990-91), team nominee for MOP in 1989, 4 time team nominee for defensive MOP (1989-92), 3 time East division defensive MOP (1989-91), 2 time CFL defensive MOP (1990-91), 1990 Grey Cup defensive MVP, 2 time Grey Cup champion (1988, 90), 4 Grey Cup appearances (1988, 90, 92, 93), CFL Hall of Fame Dave Burkholder – 98 games in 7 seasons (1958-64), 9 Int., 59 yards, 8 fumble recoveries, 39 yards, 2 TD, no tackle or sack stats available, 3 time divisional all-star (1958, 60, 61), team nominee for most outstanding lineman in 1962, 4 time Grey Cup champion (1958, 59, 61, 62) Greg Clark – 55 games in 4 seasons (1993-96), 3 Int., 42 yards, 1 TD, 4 fumble recoveries, 66 yards, 2 TD, 198 tackles, 15 sacks, team nominee for MOP and defensive MOP in 1995 Mike (Mickey) Doyle – 59 games in 4 seasons (1970-73), 8 Int., 122 yards, 3 fumble recoveries, 1 yard, no tackle or sack stats available, 1972 divisional all-star, team nominee for outstanding lineman in 1972 Phil Minnick – 87 games in 8 seasons (1965-70, 1972-73), 11 Int., 91 yards, 6 fumble recoveries, 9 yards, 1 TD, no tackle or sack stats available, 2 time divisional and CFL all-star (1968, 69), team nominee for MOP in 1969, 3 time team nominee for outstanding lineman (1966, 68, 69), Grey Cup appearance in 1965 Henoc Muamba – 47 games in 3 seasons (2011-13), 1 Int., 20 yards, 1 fumble recovery, 52 yards, 1 TD, 186 tackles, 4 sacks, 2013 divisional, CFL and CFLPA all-star, team nominee for outstanding Canadian in 2012, team nominee for MOP, MODP, and outstanding Canadian in 2013, and eastern division outstanding Canadian in 2013, Grey Cup appearance in 2011 Paul Randolph – 110 games in 7 seasons (1989-95), 9 Int., 141 yards, 6 fumble recoveries, 30 yards, 372 tackles, 32 sacks, 1990 Grey Cup champion, 3 Grey Cup appearances, (1990, 92, 93) Barrin Simpson – 53 games in 4 seasons (2006-09), 3 Int., 44 yards, 5 fumble recoveries, 24 yards, 335 tackles, 11 sacks, 110+ tackles in consecutive seasons (2006-07), 2 time divisional, CFL and CFLPA all-star (2006, 07), 2006 Eastern division defensive MOP, Grey Cup appearance in 2007 Harry Walters – 62 games in 4 seasons (1975-78), 12 Int., 190 yards, 10 fumble recoveries, 9 yards, no tackle or sack stats available, 2 time divisional all-star (1975, 76), 1976 CFL all-star, 1976 team nominee for defensive MOP K.D. Williams – 38 games in 3 seasons (1995-96, 2002), 5 Int., 83 yards, 1 TD, 5 fumble recoveries, 7 yards, 150 tackles, 11 sacks, divisional, CFL and CFLPA all-star in 1996, team nominee for outstanding rookie in 1995, team nominee for MOP (but not defensive MOP – that went to Angelo Snipes) in 1996, CFL Record 6 tackles for a loss in one game

And another. This one hurts personally as he was my first boss. R.I.P. Mr. R. https://globalnews.ca/news/4809107/founder-of-iconic-bridge-drive-in-dies/

That insult was completely unnecessary and how threads get derailed around here. Maybe a PM if you have a personal issue with someone? Just my two cents, I apologize if I’m overstepping my bounds.

Well I wanted to put West down as an inside linebacker since he was at that spot for a pair of dominant years, but I was swayed by others. Will make the voting for inside linebacker more interesting though (who will join Greg Battle?)

We haven't lit up the world with all-star linebackers in the last couple of decades, really. (Kelly in '99, before that Payton in '93, and aside from Greg Battle in the early 90's and Adam Bighill last year, we've been pretty lean at middle linebacker too, from a league recognition standpoint). We were a factory form 1983 to 1993 for sure. QB will come later, but aside from all-stars Glenn and K. Jones in the 2000's and our lean last decade, I can think of Dunigan, Clements (and Hufnagel as a solid back-up), Brock, Jonas, Ploen, and Jacobs.

One man's take: OK, with the move of James West to outside linebacker, this is really more a question of who would be third or fourth here. West and Ty Jones are locks here. Although Elfrid Payton's staggering sack totals are hard to overlook, he found more success later in his career as a defensive rush end, and his relatively low tackle totals show him to be a one-trick pony (albeit a pretty fantastic trick with 157 career sacks). Even at that, West's all-around game (INTs and fumble recoveries, huge tackle totals, shifting easily from inside to outside and dominating at both spots, and being a defensive captain to boot) puts him well ahead. Unlike Payton, his motor never stopped, and he never quit on a play. I suppose Mo Kelly would slot in 4th, but his totals are as a safety and linebacker combined.

Here are the bios: NOTE: Tackles were not recorded before 1987, so any tackle numbers will not be complete for players who played before that year. Ike Charlton – 60 games in 6 seasons (2005-10), 1 Int., 29 yards, 6 fumble recoveries, 62 yards, 1 TD, 25 tackles, 4 sacks Charlie Clemons – 39 games in 3 seasons (1994-96), 68 tackles, 9 sacks Delbert Fowler – 53 games in 4 seasons (1984, 86-88), 1 Int., 0 yards, 3 fumble recoveries, 0 yards, 33 tackles in 1987, 24 sacks, 2 time Grey Cup champion (1984, 88) Kyries Hebert – 32 games in 2 seasons (2006-07), 3 Int., 60 yards, 3 fumble recoveries, 6 yards, 87 tackles, 7 sacks Tyrone Jones – 118 games in 8 seasons (1983-87, 89-91), 13 Int., 88 yards, 1 TD, 8 fumble recoveries, 97 yards, 1 TD, 134 tackles from 1987-91, 98 sacks (club record), 5 time divisional all-star (1984-87, 90), 4 time CFL all-star (1984-87), 1985 CFL Defensive MOP, 1984 Grey Cup defensive MVP, Grey Cup record 4 sacks in 1984 game, 2 time Grey Cup champion (1984, 90), CFL Hall of Fame Maurice Kelly – 71 games in 4 seasons (1998-99, 2003-04), 9 Int., 148 yards, 1 TD, 12 fumble recoveries, 65 yards, 1 TD, 284 tackles, 7 sacks, CFLPA all-star in 1998, divisional and CFL all-star in 1999, led CFL with 7 fumble recoveries in 1999, team nominee for MOP and MODP in 1999 Rob McLaren – 80 games in 5 seasons (1969-73), 3 Int., 3 yards, 6 fumble recoveries, 4 yards, 1971 divisional all-star Elfrid Payton – 71 games in 5 seasons (1991-93, 2000*, 2004*), (*was a defensive end in 2000 and 2004), 2 Int., 68 yards, 1 TD, 8 fumble recoveries, 48 yards, 1 TD, 160 tackles, 47 sacks, club record 22 sacks in 1993, divisional and CFL all-star in 1993, team nominee for most outstanding rookie in 1991, Eastern division most outstanding defensive player in 1993, 2 Grey Cup appearances (1992, 93), CFL Hall of Fame James West – 110 games in 8 seasons (1985-92), 15 Int., 204 yards, 1TD, 12 fumble recoveries, 21 yards, 1 TD, 378 tackles from 1987-92, 37 sacks, 3 time divisional all-star (1987-89), 2 time CFL all-star (1987, 1989), Eastern division most outstanding defensive player in 1987, 2 time Grey Cup champion (1988, 90). CFL Hall of Fame

RESULTS Coach: Bud Grant GM: Cal Murphy QB: Ken Ploen RB: Leo Lewis RB: Charles Roberts C: John Bonk G: Nick Bastaja G: David Black T: Stanley Bryant T: Chris Walby SB: Milt Stegall SB: Joe Poplawski WR: James Murphy WR: Jeff Boyd TE: Ernie Pitts REC: Terrence Edwards DT: Doug Brown DT: Stan Mikawos DE: Herb Gray DE: Tony Norman ILB: Greg Battle ILB: Barrin Simpson OLB: Tyrone Jones OLB: James West CB: Rod Hill CB: Less Browne HB: Juran Bolden HB: Jonathan Hefney S: Paul Bennett PK: Justin Medlock P: Bob Cameron PR: Keith Stokes KR: Albert Johnson III ST: Wade Miller

I finally opted for Bennett, who seems well on his way to winning the vote. This feels right. Not the biggest hitter, not the explosive numbers, but he was definitely a field general from his position and a sure tackler. His role was so much more than just the big hit or the last line of defence, really a defensive captain like a middle linebacker would be, and he was a known force throughout his career at the position.

I found video of the 2001 Grey Cup (ouch) that listed Armstrong as a middle linebacker, will place him there. Thanks very much for the assistance.

Still need to determine positions (inside or outside) for the bolded players. Assistance required.

So I need assistance placing some linebackers as inside or outside, so please fill in the blanks for me. Right now, I have the following lists - Outside (this week's poll) Elfrid Payton, Ty Jones, Rob McLaren, Delbert Fowler, James West Inside (next week) Phil Minnick, Greg Battle, Barrin Simpson, Aaron Brown, Harry Walters, Mike Doyle, Dave Burkholder, Henoc Muamba, Paul Randolph Unknown (help me place them) Antonio Armstrong, Kyries Hebert, Charlie Clemons, Greg Clark, Maurice Kelly, KD Williams, Ike Charlton

You cannot compare CFL and NFL schedules. In the NFL you don't play veery team. In the CFL with an odd number of teams, one must be off every week. The third bye was added to avoid the week where 5 games are played and one team has to play twice in 5 days. The current system is actually very good. Having said that, although one team will always get week 1 as a bye and one team will get week 21 as a bye, it would be nicer if the byes were equitable. Having the Bombers get week 2 off, then week 21, is poor planning.

Merry Christmas everyone, and all the best for 2019!

And 2 time winner as Most Outstanding Canadian in the league (second one was with Hamilton). Safety has pretty much always been a position where a Canadian player has been utilized. Aside from Thompson, without researching and confirming it, I think everyone else on the list is Canadian.

Payton was a CFL all star as a linebacker in 1993.

West also spent time as an inside (middle) linebacker and was a CFL all-star there in 1987, and was also the Eastern division defensive player of the year. The following year he again was a divisional all-star as a middle linebacker. In 1989 he moved outside to accommodate Greg Battle moving into the middle linebacker spot, and West was a CFL all-star from the outside (Battle himself was a CFL all-star as an outside backer in 1990, but otherwise was a middle linebacker for the rest of his career, so he will be placed on the inside linebacker category). I am inclined to place West inside for the nominations, but let me know if this will meet with resistance.

Re: Elfrid Payton position. He started his career as a linebacker, and in his first stint with the Blue Bombers was the team's rookie of the year in 1991 and in 1993 set a club record with 22 sacks (league leader as well) and was named a CFL all-star and east division defensive player of the year at the linebacker position. His second go-round with the club was in 2000, and this time he was a defensive lineman. Although he had much success elsewhere in his career as a d-lineman after switching to that new position (Montreal starting in 1996, Toronto in 2001 and Edmonton in 2002), his greatest contribution to the Bombers came as a linebacker, so I believe he is warranted at being placed in this position, since his achievements for other terms are not to be considered.

My initial gut reaction says Ty Jones and Elfrid Payton outside, James West and Greg Battle inside, and there really is likely very little debate about that (no disrespect to others on the list - Aaron Brown was a stud in the middle and freed up Jones to pile up his gaudy numbers). Battle and Jones are locks, West pretty much too, despite some big names out there (West's personality elevates him above all others). Payton has obscenely great sack totals, but was that frustrating player who would get 3 sacks in a game but seemingly take most other plays off (by his own admission), so he might be one on the bubble. Surprisingly few all-stars from the linebackers as compared to d-linemen in Blue Bomber history. Adam Bighill's one great season here could arguably vault him into contention.