The Unknown Poster

I dont care if you drink milk, get cancer and die. I dont know you But hey, if you disagree with me, just insult me! lol Let's not play the hurt feelings game. Saying you don't care if somebody gets cancer and dies was my basis for calling you angry. If you're not angry it must mean you're just an ***hole. No, I said I didnt wish that on anyone. But if I hear that someone I dont know, never met etc got cancer and died, the only emotional response Im having is one of "I dont wish that on anyone". Not caring was a poor choice of words. I care about all humans to different degrees. It wouldnt emotionally impact me, is what I meant.

No no, that is not what I am saying. I believe you took the position that *not* eating dairy and meat was *not* optimum. Im not saying those things at all. Im fairly healthy and I eat meat and dairy. My entire argument is that we are all smart enough to know what the best diet is. But thats a hard diet to live by. I can drink soda once a week and still live a healthy diet but we both know soda is bad for you and has no redeeming qualities besides taste. If you say "TUP, I think meat and dairy can be eaten in moderation as part of a healthy diet but I agree that we as humans dont need those things and that the very best highly healthy diet would be one that consists of only fruit, veggies and whole grains with nothing processed", then I would agree with you 100%.

And if you do….be aware of your cycle. If your nutritionist really tells you that, please do everyone here a favour and give us her name/business location so no one else makes the mistake of seeing that quack. I'll refer her to this message board so she can find out the "facts". I choose not to accept medical advice from an angry guy on the internet who compares milk to crack. Yeah I wouldnt either. Who's that? Im not angry. And I drew a ridiculous comparison to make fun of a ridiculous statement. But again, if you think a nutritionish you advises you to drink steroid-laden milk because she thinks your body will filter it out, is a good source, by all means, go see her. But hey, if you disagree with me, just insult me! lol

The best part is that he claims it is common sense but he didn't know it until he read it in a book. Unclear on the definition of common sense I suppose. Perfect example of an inability to debate an issue. Attack the messenger. Is that what I said. I dont think so. I said take facts and apply common sense to them. But back when i thought I NEEDED meat and dairy, you're right, I had NO common sense in relation to that position. Reading books and articles allowed me to open my mind and when I applied common sense to what I was reading, it became clear that we as humans do not NEED meat or diary. And I have a feeling you agree with me but you dont want to "lose" an argument.

Thats a fantastic quote that proves my point quite well. You see how he qualified his response to essentially provide the Message to the Masses ' look, dont give up all the things you like. the occasional glass of milk or shot of heroin probably wont kill you. Everything in moderation". But when you read his argument in favour of milk *not* being healthy you see that his point IS in fact that milk is not healthy. The fact he qualifies that by saying "yeah sure, occasional use is fine" in no way diminshes the rest of what he said. It doesnt suddenly make milk healthy and it doesnt suddenly make the government food guide gospel. And I agree with you about milk being delicious. I love milk. But I love Pepsi too. But I know I dont need either one of those things.

And if you do….be aware of your cycle. If your nutritionist really tells you that, please do everyone here a favour and give us her name/business location so no one else makes the mistake of seeing that quack.

Never once said humans NEED milk. My position is that it can be part of a healthy diet that leads to a long, healthy life. Crack can be a part of a healthy diet. Loading a s chamber gun with 1 bullet, spinning it and pointing it to your head and pulling the trigger once per day *can* be a part of a healthy life-style...for six days anyway. My argument, which you disagreed with, was the optimum diet for humans is fruit, veggies, whole grains. No milk. No meat. No dairy at all. No animal products at all. Get exercise. I would LOVE to live that way. I KNOW thats the best thing for me as a human. It drastically lowers my cancer risk. Im not preaching. Because i CAN'T live that way. Wish I could. I get everyone who loves dairy and meat etc. I really do. The argument here is not that you can't have milk or you cant have a steak or you cant have cheesecake. My point was, we dont NEED those things and if we were machines being run at optimum peak efficiency, we would never have those things.

I assume you havent read the entire thread. I mean, think about what you're saying. Are you taking the position that MILK IS GOOD FOR YOU AND MAKES YOU HEALTHY? I have no skin the game to convince you otherwise. I dont care if you drink milk, get cancer and die. I dont know you (though I dont wish that on anyone). Its one thing for you or anyone else to take the position that we as humans are able to live long and healthy by eating a moderate diet. I wont fight you to the death over that. As I have repeatedly said, I DONT practice what I preach, though I DO avoid milk. I look at milk like soda. I LOVE Dr Pepper. I'd drink it all day if I could. But I KNOW its bad for me. I LOVE milk. But I KNOW its bad for me. You might disagree. But again, Im not pushing ONE study. Im saying The China Study is a great book that opens your eyes to new ideas. You can do what you want with that. But essentially the ideas it pushes are we should eat fruit, veggies, whole grains. Period. Are you arguing that eating like that is BAD for you? You might not like to eat like that (I dont) but you really cant, with a straight face, argue that a diet like that is going to harm you. Look, its easy to find counter-opinions to anything. Google The China Study. Its easy. Im currently reading through one argument against The China Study and its very interesting. However, the most glaring aspect is it pokes holes in the China Study's authors methods and accuses him of generalizations. It thus far doesnt try to take a counter position that we humans SHOULD eat as much meat and milk as we can. No one ever takes that position. The anti-vegan position is either one of ignorance "if you dont eat meat you wont get enough protein" or simple arguing for the sake of arguing "well, you *can* eat meat and milk, it wont kill you". Okay, sure. Everything in moderation. Im not closed minded at all. I WAS. I believed the more protein, the better. The more milk the better. The more meat the better. My vegan girlfriend couldnt convince me differently. Then I read some books. Then I watched some documentaries. My mind became OPEN. Go to your doctor. Say "Doc, Im going to stop eating meat and dairy. Im going to eat a diet of fruit, veggies and whole grains. Im really excited about this. What do you think?" I guarantee your doctor wont say "thats a terrible idea. That is not healthy." Your doctor MIGHT say "you dont have to do that. Eat everything in moderation and get some exercise." Thats the Message for the Masses. But in all likelyhood your doctor will say "Thats great! Good luck with that! Come back in three months and we will do some tests and make sure you're eating properly and getting all the vitamins and nutrients you need." DOnt tell me Im closed minded because you are.

Sure. I actually was going to try and help you out by finding sources to say that humans SHOULD drink milk but so far most of the articles I find that are in favour of milk are very quick to qualify that position by denouncing store bought milk that is filled with steroids and hormones and points out that most people have issues with milk. I have yet to find an article (outside of the government food guide) that pushes the idea humans should drink milk for its health benefits. But I am very interested in whatever you can find that takes the position HUMANS NEED MILK.

100% agree. There is no reason in this day and age for any animal raised for slaughter to suffer. I watched a good movie called "Temple Grandin", the true story of an autistic woman named Temple Grandin who revolutionized the way cows are slaughtered at killing plants. She had a special ability to think like a cow, and redesigned the entire process. Great movie, well worth watching. Speaking of books and theories, another theory I've read a bit about is blood type. This is all just speculation but a large percentage of the world is "O positive". I'm "O Positive". Someone told me that O Positive people's ancestors were the hunter/gatherer types, and so those with this blood type are meat eaters, and their bodies are more conducive to digesting meat. Other blood types like type A and B are related to ancient tribes who farmed and lived on vegetables, which is why they are more suited to a vegetarian diet, as their ancestors pre-programed them for it. I know this is probably all bunk, but who knows. I know I love meat, and I'm O Positive. I don't digest wheats or bread very well. That proves nothing, but it is an interesting theory to consider. I find this very interesting. i've read a little about blood types being able to tell you about yourself but never really looked into its validity. It would be interesting to explore genetic predisposition and how generations of "inter-breeding" impacts that. For example, one debate I like to bring up at parties just for fun is that men are genetically pre-disposed to *not* being monogamous whereas women are. Usually the men in the room nod in agreement while the women look on horrified. But there's science to back it up. But thats another debate for another thread. Speaking of which, with emotions running high, someone should start a climate change thread if there isnt one already. i for one dont buy the Al Gore position ;-)

Mark Hyman and Walkter Willett are doctors. But hey, what do they know. Those are two people I quoted in this thread. I know the sun is hot. I've never been to the sun. Do you want to debate that its hot? People tell me it is. Scientists tell me. I believe them because I apply common sense to what I read. But Im sure you can find someone to tell you the sun doesnt exist and its all an illusion. I guess the debate about the sun rages on. Come on man...you're the one whining. If you cant debate with common sense, dont take part in the thread. The China Study was a STUDY, by the way. Now you can debate it but dont tell me "people disagree" and consider that you sourcing it. If you want everyone else to source their opinions, then you better too. Otherwise, go have a tall glass of milk and get lost.

Yeah this bugs me a lot too. If you want to be vegan or vegetarian for your health, then go for it, but enough with the sob story on us killing animals. Killing for sport pisses me off, and is the reason we have so many endangered species in the world. I also hate the way some companies slaughter animals in the plant and practically torture the animal...if you're going to kill something don't torture it, make it quick and painless. I've seen video's of the way they start cutting into the animal while it's still alive cause their too cheap to kill the thing first. That really makes me want to shove something sharp up that company's anal cavity. But killing to eat the meat and use it's hide for clothing...that's been in practice for thousands of years. The natives were the best at it as they used every piece of the animal, and to me that's the right way to do it. I WISH I had the self discipline to not eat meat. The way animals are treated by big companies is dispicable. If you have Netflix there are several documentaries about this which I cant remember the names of off the top of my head. I like meat. So get it. but I have no problem with a vegan or vegetarian reminding me of the criminal nature of how our meat is processed. Because quite honestly, the day we demand silence on the issue, is the day we agree its ok. I mean, sure, I dont want someone at CHOP, standing at the table shaming me. But I have no problem with people protesting these companies and trying to make change. They are much better people than I am and I applaud their effort.

LOL The debate "rages on"? I dont think so. *maybe* you could say there is a raging debate about climate change but nutrition? Every book or article I have ever read, every health "nut" I have ever talked to, the VAST majority are all in agreement about THE optimum healthy way to live. No one ever says you SHOULD eat cheeseburgers and fries every day. No one makes that argument. I see the "debate" split into three factions: the majority of mainstream experts in the middle, who tailor their message to the masses by imploring "balance" with a focus on fruits, veggies, whole grains etc. These people will tell you "anything in moderation" because they know the AVERAGE person simply cant eat an optimum human diet (I know I can't). Then you have the vast minority who are impacted by lobbyists who actually tell you lies like DRINK MILK AND IT WILL MAKE YOU BIG AND STRONG. This is an untrue message. Then you have another group, probably a minority, that pushes the OPTIMUM diet. This is for people who are ultra serious about their health and diet with the desire and self control to live it. But dont tell me there is a raging debate about nutrition. And also, if you dont like the message, attacking the messenger is the classic response. bravo to you.

Why dont we just trade for Ottawa's pick and draft them both. Problem solved.

I grew up drinking milk straight from the cow, and it definitely tasted better than what is sold in stores, that's for sure. We'd have friends visit us from Calgary, and they'd bring store-bought milk because they hated the taste of our straight from the cow stuff. It was also extremely rich, as we just skimmed off the cream, so it was probably like drinking homo milk x 2. No doubt. When you know whats in "store" milk, its disgusting. Dr Walter Willett is a professor at Harvard Medical School at the chair of the department of nutrition. Here are some of his remarks concerning milk (presented by and with commentary from Dr Mark Hyman): The Truth about Dairy According to Dr. Willett, who has done many studies and reviewed the research on this topic, there are many reasons to pass up milk, including: 1. Milk doesn't reduce fractures.(i) Contrary to popular belief, eating dairy products has never been shown to reduce fracture risk. In fact, according to the Nurses' Health Study dairy may increase risk of fractures by 50 percent! 2. Less dairy, better bones. Countries with lowest rates of dairy and calcium consumption (like those in Africa and Asia) have the lowest rates of osteoporosis. 3. Calcium isn't as bone-protective as we thought.(ii) Studies of calcium supplementation have shown no benefit in reducing fracture risk. Vitamin D appears to be much more important than calcium in preventing fractures. 4. Calcium may raise cancer risk. Research shows that higher intakes of both calcium and dairy products may increase a man's risk of prostate cancer by 30 to 50 percent.(iii) Plus, dairy consumption increases the body's level of insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) -- a known cancer promoter. 5. Calcium has benefits that dairy doesn't. Calcium supplements, but not dairy products, may reduce the risk of colon cancer.(iv) 6. Not everyone can stomach dairy.(v) About 75 percent of the world's population is genetically unable to properly digest milk and other dairy products -- a problem called lactose intolerance. Based on such findings, Dr. Willet has come to some important conclusions: • Everybody needs calcium -- but probably not as much as our government's recommended daily allowance (RDA) and calcium from diet, including greens and beans is better utilized by the body with less risk than calcium supplements. • Calcium probably doesn't prevent broken bones. Few people in this country are likely to reduce their fracture risk by getting more calcium. • Men may not want to take calcium supplements. Supplements of calcium and vitamin D may be reasonable for women. • Dairy may be unhealthy. Advocating dairy consumption may have negative effects on health. If all that isn't enough to swear you off milk, there are a few other scientific findings worth noting. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) recently asked the UDSA to look into the scientific basis of the claims made in the "milk mustache" ads. Their panel of scientists stated the truth clearly: • Milk doesn't benefit sports performance. • There's no evidence that dairy is good for your bones or prevents osteoporosis -- in fact, the animal protein it contains may help cause bone loss! • Dairy is linked to prostate cancer. • It's full of saturated fat and is linked to heart disease. • Dairy causes digestive problems for the 75 percent of people with lactose intolerance. • Dairy aggravates irritable bowel syndrome. Simply put, the FTC asked the dairy industry, "Got Proof?" -- and the answer was NO! Plus, dairy may contribute to even more health problems, like: • Allergies (vi) • Sinus problems • Ear infections • Type 1 diabetes (vii) • Chronic constipation (viii) • Anemia (in children) Due to these concerns, many have begun to consider raw milk an alternative. But that isn't really a healthy form of dairy either ... Yes, raw, whole, organic milk eliminates concerns like pesticides, hormones, antibiotics, and the effects of homogenization and pasteurization -- but to me, these benefits don't outweigh dairy's potential risks. From an evolutionary point of view, milk is a strange food for humans. Until 10,000 years ago we didn't domesticate animals and weren't able to drink milk (unless some brave hunter-gather milked a wild tiger or buffalo!). If you don't believe that, consider this: The majority of humans naturally stop producing significant amounts of lactase - the enzyme needed to properly metabolize lactose, the sugar in milk -- sometime between the ages of two and five. In fact, for most mammals, the normal condition is to stop producing the enzymes needed to properly digest and metabolize milk after they have been weaned. Our bodies just weren't made to digest milk on a regular basis. Instead, most scientists agree that it's better for us to get calcium, potassium, protein, and fats from other food sources, like whole plant foods -- vegetables, fruits, beans, whole grains, nuts, seeds, and seaweed. So here is my advice for dealing with dairy. 6 Tips for Dealing with Dairy • Take your Cow for a Walk. It will do you much more good than drinking milk. • Don't rely on dairy for healthy bones. If you want healthy bones, get plenty of exercise and supplement with 2,000 IU of vitamin D daily. • Get your calcium from food. These include dark green leafy vegetables, sesame tahini, sea vegetables, and sardines or salmon with the bones. • Try giving up all dairy. That means eliminate milk, cheese, yogurt, and ice cream for two weeks and see if you feel better. You should notice improvements with your sinuses, post-nasal drip, headaches, irritable bowel syndrome, energy, and weight. Then start eating dairy again and see how you feel. If you feel worse, you should try to give it up for life. • If you can tolerate dairy, use only raw, organic dairy products. I suggest focusing on fermented products like unsweetened yogurt and kefir, occasionally. • If you have to feed your child formula from milk, don't worry. The milk in infant formula is hydrolyzed or broken down and easier to digest (although it can still cause allergies). Once your child is a year old, switch him or her to real food and almond milk. Still got milk? I hope not! Remember, dairy is not crucial for good health. I encourage you to go dairy-free and see what it does for you ***Now we can all go online and find people to say the opposite, thats why common sense must come into play. The USDA food reccomendations are made by a panel that contains lobbyists from the industries. Its perfectly okay for someone to say they enjoy milk so they will drink it but the legitimate evidence is that its not good for you and humans werent meant to drink it.

I lent my copy to someone and never got it back so Im going from memory. I AGREE that one should not read ONE book and take it as fact. But The China Study IS a great eye opener for people who are closed minded about its subject matter. It should be the beginning of enlightenment not the sum total. If I recall the study ended up focuses on (or was triggered by) a specific group of Chinese that, for many generations, lived off the land and had remarkable longevity, looked much younger and only ever died of "natural" old age, not all Chinese. But again, its been a long time since I read it. To be honest I found some of it dry and it prompted me to read other things in books and online.

what a ridiculous argument.... how many other animals have the means to actually pull that off? Sorry...no other mammal drinks their own mothers milk beyond infancy either. Is that better for you? Milk = bad. The "calcium" you get from milk does not outweight the health detriments to drinking it. Especially the crap they sell that they call milk which is loaded with steroids, drugs and hormones. Mlik is tasty. But it isnt good.

You are absolutely right on both counts. I always found there was a trickle down effect. When WWE got hot, it took awhile for that to trickle down to the local scene. When WWE got stale, it was a bit quicker. When CWF was packing Le Rendezvous (great venue as it was all ages AND served booze) in 2000, they were using a bit of an ECW style which plays really well, especially in the short term. They had very good talent too (Top guy was Robby Royce who was exceptional in his prime and even after 20 years is still a very good worker) and a bunch of young guys that went on to be VERY good workers (Rawskillz, Mentallo, Mike Angels etc). When TRCW (sort of an off-shoot of CWF) started up in 2001, they really hit their stride after debuting at The Palladium. While the debuted to poor crowds, the bar helped push their weekend regulars to try out the wrestling on Thursday nights and once they got a core group of young, cool, University-aged people to become regulars, it became the cool thing to do. Once those casual fans and bargoers started drifting away, I thought we had somewhat aliented the hardcore wrestling fans to a degree and didnt really serve that niche. In 2004-ish (maybe even to an extent end of 2003) I made the decision to serve that niche. I remember a competitor started at Coyotes, down the street from us, and I said to my guys "I dont care who draws more people week to week. I care who has the best show EVERY week. In the end, the one with the best show with have staying power". And I also felt if I was going to promote shows, I needed a reason other than ego. If I put $1000 in my pocket every week, then that would be reason, but no one was doing that so my reason became developing talent and to do that you need to work a style that is going to teach and develop guys into workers who have the chance to go somewhere. I remember our competition laughing at us for "pushing the juniors" but the 'juniors' such as Kenny Omega, Mentallo, Rawskillz, Ryan Wood etc were our best workers at the time. And we began building back up a loyal core of fans who LOVED wrestling. Dont get me wrong, we still had humour and "characters" (including the first ever Sex Toy on a Pole match in wrestling history) but that all flowed organically from having talented workers and good, realistic-based storylines. The reason my main competition exists today is because the core group there were four guys who worked for me that wanted to be the top four guys. Its easier to be the top guys when you're the best four guys than being apart of a group that while you might be very talented, you're not the top four talents. So they started their own promotion. In fairness, we started our promotion for a similar reason (lol). In fact, they all did. CWF begat TRCW begat PCW begat CWE and its really only PCW and CWE that are the leading promotions right now.

I rather enjoy that you're entire take away from this thread is "someone disagrees with me = they read one book and are blindly accepting it". Try to think a little bit harder than that. If you cant eat ultra healthy, then yes a "balanced" diet is the way to go. But there is a far more optimum way to eat and be healthy that involves no meat or dairy. It requires effort to gain the required nutirients and it requires discipline. But its THE best way to eat and live (along with being physically fit). But you can pretend a "balanced" diet of dairy and meat is better for you. And Im not being malicious in saying that. Its simply true that most people dont want to read or use common sense in accepting that the western diet is all wrong for humans. I love dairy. I love meat. My gf is a vegan. But I am not simply because, despite knowledge and opportunity, I havent put forth the effort to eat in a way i KNOW is far better for me. But 90% of the time I dont eat dairy (and unless Im treating myself to a cookie, I NEVER drink milk, the dairy I do eat occasionally is in the form of cheese) and 99% of the time I dont drink soda (aside: I have two friends that have been trying to eat "healthier" but cant stop sucking back coke...I just shake my head - easiest "healthy choice" you can possibly make is to stop drinking soda, even diet which is bad in a different way). I DO like meat and try to keep it to white meat but such is life. Knowing and doing are two different things. You certainly cant do if you dont know.

Yes and I didnt say that, did I? But a good study + common sense will lead you to a good path. If anyone tells you you need to drink Milk, stop listening to them. If anyone tells you you need to eat meat, stop listening to them. This isnt very complicated. Its rather simple actually. Common sense will reveal a lot.

I dont care if Etch likes to coach from the sidelines nude, wearing clown make up. As long as the D is good and the team wins games.

You have to be careful with "mainstream" sources. Im not a big "government is out to get us" type of guy but lobby groups are very insidious. Milk is a huge and powerful lobby. Read The China Study. Thats really all I can say. There are sort of two debates really. The "dont drink milk at all, its not meant for humans" argument (which is true) and the "if you're going to drink, absolutely dont drink milk bought from the grocery store" (which is more true). One thought as to why kids are aving so many problems is the amount of steroids and hormones in our food, including milk. I used to drink 3-4 litres of milk a day. I loved it. Im not anti-milk. But I also used to drink 2 lires of Dr Pepper a day because I loved it. But I know enough to know there is absolutely no reason to drink soda. Just as there is absolutely no reason to drink milk. But again, you have to be smart about it. Its like the people that say "dont be an idiot, ofcourse you need meat. How else will you get your protein?" You have to find other sources for the things we as humans need. But again, not everything "they" tell us we need is actually something we need. Excess calcium, well, the jury is out in my opinion.

When my most recent competitor started up, he would bring in a "name" every month (whereas I was doing it quarterly and making money). I knew he was doing it because in his mind "if it works for PCW quarterly, then it will be even better monthly" and he thought it would attract my crew (more "names" to work) and fans (more "names" to see). I asked him one day what his strategy was and his reply was "set us apart from all the other wrestling". I replied "well, there might be a lot of wrestling but most of it is crap. There's two promotions with good talent, yours and mine so you're bringing in monthly names as a way to drive me out of business but all you're going to do is kill the business for both of us". Within a few months, we went from all the boys working for me and drawing 500 ppl to "name" shows and 200 to regular shows to him openly bragging if they got 150 people to a "name" show (and my draws fell the same way too). You can't flood the market. I tried to explain to him that if he has a name on every show, that people will see that as a "regular" or normal show and instead of popping the big number for a name, those shows will fall to "regular" levels and then when he has to inevitably stop bringing in names, he wont draw at all. But hey, what did I know? lol Some guys would much rather try to take one fan from you then add one fan to themselves. Before deregulation, Tony Condello would bring in some pretty damn good talent. But he stopped when deregulation occured and every Tom, **** & Harry with a ring came along and started running wrestling. In my 12 years doing this, I have seen so many come and go. We're the longest running promotion now. If everyone was on the same page, things would be very, very good. We even had very good relationships with local media who were happy to come up with ways to get us free pub. But a series of no-shows impacted their reputation and its very hard to get publicity now. As one media friend explained to me "I cant run a story about your show. I need a reason to run a story and then can mention your show in passing." Usually, general interest. For example there was a local female athlete who then trained to be a wrestler, so she got a story on herself that then mentioned her "wrestling debut". Its easy to say wrestling is cyclical (because its true) and its easy to say wrestling isnt "cool" (because to an extent that is true) but the biggest detriment to the success of local wrestling has been the local wrestling business.

I think I doubt this, a lot in fact. You'd be wrong. And I like milk more than just about anybody. Also while tree hugging d bags annoys me I know many vegans who are awesome people, my gf included. Usually in groups, when the subject comes up it's the anti-vegans who are rude and ignorant not the other way around.

Hey let's debate pot usage.