Pretty historic.  Many people around here will shrug and wonder how this is still a debate in 2015.  Sadly, it is.  But the Supreme Court made the right decision.  What surprises me is how there are still highly intelligent public figures on the wrong side of history.

 

The vote was 5-4 down political lines (which disappoints me).

 

In a dissent, Justice Antonin Scalia blasted the Court's "threat to American democracy."

"The substance of today's decree is not of immense personal importance to me," he wrote. "But what really astounds is the hubris reflected in today's judicial Putsch."

 

"If you are among the many Americans—of whatever sexual orientation—who favor expanding same-sex marriage, by all means celebrate today's decision. Celebrate the achievement of a desired goal," he wrote. "Celebrate the opportunity for a new expression of commitment to a partner. Celebrate the availability of new benefits. But do not celebrate the Constitution. It had nothing to do with it.

 

 

I realise the job of the Supreme Court is not to make law but interpret law but how can they be so blatantly on the wrong side here.  Im a conservative and could never be so blinded by a political ideology as to vote against this.

 

With a US federal election looming, the candidates weighed in:

 

"In a country as diverse as ours, good people who have opposing views should be able to live side by side. It is now crucial that as a country we protect religious freedom and the right of conscience and also not discriminate," Bush said in his statement.

 

A very careful statement by Bush.  I like Jeb and I know its politics but have the courage to LEAD.  It gets far worse:

 

Conservative firebrands, including Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, said that conservatives must stand and fight by seeking a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.

 

"I will not acquiesce to an imperial court any more than our founders acquiesced to an imperial British monarch. We must resist and reject judicial tyranny, not retreat," Huckabee said in a statement.

 

On the flip side:

 

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said she was "proud" of the ruling.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/26/politics/supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-ruling/index.html

 

No one is taking your freedom away by simply existing

I was referring to Europeans and how the crusades were defending western cultre from destruction, Not gay marriage.

You couldn't be more wrong about what the crusades were or the amount of blood on your religion's hands.

"were just defending our way of life, everyone is out to get us" The notion is laughable.

In my history it's a little bit of both. There was persecution from the Catholic Church and the Jesuits, but Hutterite communities were also ravaged by mercenary soldiers, especially the Turks.

It all depends which group of Christians you're talking about - there's a whole range of experiences.

Great to see Jenner get the ESPN Courage award and good on ESPN for contributing to the message.  Ofcourse as some people predicted it's fuel for the anti-LGBT crowd who can now preface their position with "Im not against LGBT but...".  I even had a "friend" on facebook explain to me that Jenner is not a former athlete because Caitlyn and Bruce are two different people now.  Actually had a lengthy debate where the anti crowd jumped on the bandwagon of arguing against the award when in reality they are big phobes.  One person said if you want to give a gay person the award, give it to Michael Sam (he was given it last year which I pointed out) and then went with the "only current athletes should be honoured".

 

Ofcourse, a simple search of the award explains the qualifications.  Shut down the debate pretty quickly.

Interesting fact: the Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner camp asked to receive the award from ESPN, and threatened to not do the big Diane Sawyer interview if they didn't agree to it.  That award was just a big commercial for his next reality show.

 

But go on insulting all your friends who disagree with you. #LoveWins right??

Interesting fact: the Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner camp asked to receive the award from ESPN, and threatened to not do the big Diane Sawyer interview if they didn't agree to it.  That award was just a big commercial for his next reality show.

 

But go on insulting all your friends who disagree with you. #LoveWins right??

LOL

 

Finally someone who has an opinion actually does some research.  Too bad you exposed your biased with your sarcasm.

 

Unfortunately, ABC and the ESPY producers have denied that is true.  It's a wonderful example of the subtle LGBT-phobia that is sweeping social media.  "I have no problem with her if she wants to be a woman but..."  The timeline also doesnt support it.  And ultimately, the point of the award was to have a large platform to speak on an important issue.  It was a win-win.  (A lose for the bigots I guess).

 

Again, this isnt about disagreeing with an opinion.  If you like your steak well done and I like it rare, thats a difference of opinion.  LGBT rights are not opinions.  If you disagree, its not a difference of opinion, it's you are wrong.  If it's your opinion that the earth is flat, you are entitled to that opinion.  But its still wrong.

I really like what she said at the ESPY's.

"If you want to call me names, make jokes, doubt my intentions, go ahead, because the reality is I can take it. But for the thousands of kids out there who are coming to terms with being true to who they are, they shouldn’t have to take it."

For me, that's the real story. I remember back in the 90s when Freddy Mercury came out (sadly, just before dying of AIDS) and that really helped change how my crew thought about GLB people. I wonder how many people out there will be similarly affected by Caitlynn Jenner.

(no, we didn't realize that Freddy was bisexual before it became public. We were a sheltered bunch.)

I really like what she said at the ESPY's.

"If you want to call me names, make jokes, doubt my intentions, go ahead, because the reality is I can take it. But for the thousands of kids out there who are coming to terms with being true to who they are, they shouldn’t have to take it."

For me, that's the real story. I remember back in the 90s when Freddy Mercury came out (sadly, just before dying of AIDS) that really helped change how my crew thought about GLB people. I wonder how many people out there will be similarly affected by Caitlynn Jenner.

(no, we didn't realize that Freddy was bisexual before it became public. We were a sheltered bunch.)

Absolutely!  Great post.

 

In my debate on facebook when asked why couldnt Jenner accept a "Golden Globes" (weird suggestion) rather than a sports award my response was a) she wan a gold medal in the decathlon for crying out loud and the point is bringing awareness to an issue that transcends sports.  As the discussion continued and people felt it was their place to decide what standards ESPN uses, I simply copied and pasted the award qualifications which include the words "transcends sports".  I think the benefit and point of it was pretty obvious.  The people that dont see it or wont accept it are looking for reasons to be critical of someone because of her orientation and lack the courage to simply admit they are prejudiced.

 

If you or me came out or transitioned to woman, we could do so relatively privately.  Jenner has no such option.  Rather then try and "hide" or seek out a privacy she could never truly find, she has chosen to go the other way.  She owes the world nothing.  And yet she wants to use her celebrity to try and bring change knowing she will be savaged by many people.  Such commendable courage.

why couldnt Jenner accept a "Golden Globes" (weird suggestion) rather than a sports award my response was a) she wan a gold medal in the decathlon for crying out loud

I think people don't realize just how big a deal Bruce Jenner was in the 70s. He was one of the most famous non-pro athletes of that decade.

I grew up in the deep sticks with two TV channels (weather and reception permitting) and two shitty local radio stations and no daily newspaper and I knew who he was.

 

why couldnt Jenner accept a "Golden Globes" (weird suggestion) rather than a sports award my response was a) she wan a gold medal in the decathlon for crying out loud

I think people don't realize just how big a deal Bruce Jenner was in the 70s. He was one of the most famous non-pro athletes of that decade.

I grew up in the deep sticks with two TV channels (weather and reception permitting) and two shitty local radio stations and no daily newspaper and I knew who he was.

 

Exactly.  Pretty much the epitome of American male athleticism.  He was the manliness of men.  And to me, thats what so special about what she's doing now. 

 

Funny thing, in the facebook debate they at first said Caitlyn Jenner never won anything because she's now a woman.  And then it was well she's retired and retired athletes shouldnt receive awards or honors. I asked 'so when a player has his jersey retired, you dont believe that is appropriate?'  "uh..well...thats different".  Sure.

 

I only vaguely recall Bruce Jenner.  But learning about her now and seeing the 20/20 special it really hits home what a special and huge athlete she was.

It's amazing how many times you can call other people prejudiced, bigoted, or "phobic" in relatively short posts.  #LoveWins!

 

"If you disagree, its not a difference of opinion, it's you are wrong."

 

LOL, this sums up the attitude of much of the left perfectly.

Refering to a bigot as a bigot isn't not respecting their opinion. It's being factual. Refusing to tolerate your intolerance isn't intolerance.

Seems to me the opinion of the social right is that they can trample in other people's rights to 'protect their way of life in the name of Jesus '

Whose rights are being trampled on by people expressing their opinions on Facebook or here?

Whose rights are being trampled on by people expressing their opinions on Facebook or here?

You can express your bigoted opinion all you want, but the second you try to deny some one the same rights as you its a whole different story.

So no one's then?  Then I guess my original point stands.  Lay off with the pre-emptive accusations of bigotry, hatred, and phobias towards everyone else.  It's almost like there's an... intolerance towards Christians here?

So no one's then? Then I guess my original point stands. Lay off with the pre-emptive accusations of bigotry, hatred, and phobias towards everyone else. It's almost like there's an... intolerance towards Christians here?

No it's still bigotry. Just a lesser form of it. I'm very tolerant of people's religious views until they try to use their religion to cast dispersions on an entire group of people by picking and choosing which parts of it they're going to follow and try to restrict their rights.

That doesn't make any sense, but I don't blame you because you're not alone.

 

There's plenty of people largely ignorant of Christianity who love to cast judgement on them based on their very limited personal experiences or (more likely) what they've heard from other biased sources... which I believe is pretty much the definition of bigotry!

 

But we could do this all day. Let's just agree that we both think each other bigoted and leave it at that.

Nope. I'm not bigoted. What you're describing is bigotry but thats not me. I don't judge anyone based on their religion, ethnicity, socioeconomic status or otherwise. There are many people who share your religion but not your views. I don't have any 'intolerance' to them. I judge people on their individual actions and beliefs. I don't even think you arent entitled to your opinion. I think you are perfectly entitled to it, just not entitled to suggest your opinion should deprive anyone else from their basic rights.

You are judging an entire group of peoplle based on one single similarity. That is the very definition of bigotry and prejudice.

So being against bigotry towards LGBT people is somehow against Christianity?  HA!

 

How can someone actually be against the basic rights of other humans and then claim their right to freedom of expression or religion is being trampled when people rightly call that bigotry?

 

The sarcastic use of #lovewins exposes the inherent prejudice.  How is Jenner living her life somehow a sin against Christianity or a violation of anyones religious freedom?

 

Would you also argue that its perfectly acceptable to hate black people?  Again, the KKK exists and has the right to their opinions but it doesnt make their opinions any less wrong just because they are free to express them.  Again, you can claim the earth is flat.  Doesnt make it right.  But you're allowed to think it.

 

Taking something I wrote and making it a left vs right battle is hilarious since Im far from a lefty.  As soon as someone makes it a religious argument, they've lost because it simply cant stand up to scrutiny.  As for Facebook, I didnt report a post.  I replied to a post.  And engaged in a discussion.  If the bigots are free to express their opinions, which they are, why arent I free to express mine.  The reason I chose to respond to that particular person was because he was a friend who I knew to have relatives and friends in the LGBT community.

 

Not everything is an opinion.  Some things are simply facts.  As Fraser so eloquently explained.

 

Fraser - you're spot on and very articulate.  Some people will never get it.  I come from a religous family and it saddens me that people use religion as an excuse for barely contained bigotry.

I'm not even sure where most of your comments are coming from.  Who said it was OK to hate transgender people? I didn't, and no real Christian would either.

 

Also, I'm still not sure where transgenders rights are being trampled on. Surely not by anything I've said or promoted here?

 

You guys are just outraged at the attitudes and actions that you THINK I support.

I'm not even sure where most of your comments are coming from.  Who said it was OK to hate transgender people? I didn't, and no real Christian would either.

 

Also, I'm still not sure where transgenders rights are being trampled on. Surely not by anything I've said or promoted here?

 

You guys are just outraged at the attitudes and actions that you THINK I support.

Not really.  You contributed to a discussion with sarcasm and suggested people were prejudiced against Christians.  If you want to back track now, so be it.  And you expressed disagreement with the idea that bigotry towards LGBT people being wrong was some sort of left-winged opinion. 

I'm not even sure where most of your comments are coming from. Who said it was OK to hate transgender people? I didn't, and no real Christian would either.

Also, I'm still not sure where transgenders rights are being trampled on. Surely not by anything I've said or promoted here?

You guys are just outraged at the attitudes and actions that you THINK I support.

Why don't you enlighten us on what your opinions are since we seem to understand them so poorly

I think it's terribly sad that the reaction to someone with an obvious mental disorder is to encourage their delusion and even give him major, life-altering cosmetic surgery.  Lord help me if I ever suffer from mental illness and instead of treatment I'm just encouraged to cut off my privates.

 

I also find it ridiculous that so many people (and a lot of the media) can simultaneously hate on and ridicule the whole Kardashian/Jenner clan for being attention-whores and completely screwed up in almot every way, while also praising Bruce Jenner as a courageous hero.  How can you not make any sort of connection between the two?

 

... and I'm not trying to take away anyone's rights as far as I know. Nor do I hate anyone involved in the sad, screwed up situation.

I think it's terribly sad that the reaction to someone with an obvious mental disorder is to encourage their delusion and even give him major, life-altering cosmetic surgery.  Lord help me if I ever suffer from mental illness and instead of treatment I'm just encouraged to cut off my privates.

 

I also find it ridiculous that so many people (and a lot of the media) can simultaneously hate on and ridicule the whole Kardashian/Jenner clan for being attention-whores and completely screwed up in almot every way, while also praising Bruce Jenner as a courageous hero.  How can you not make any sort of connection between the two?

 

... and I'm not trying to take away anyone's rights as far as I know. Nor do I hate anyone involved in the sad, screwed up situation.

So...anyone who is gay, lesbian, bi, Trans etc has a mental disorder?

And that Bruce Jenner is trans gender because his adopted daughters are annoying attention whores?

And that Bruce Jenner is trans gender because his adopted daughters are annoying attention whores?

Not quite. Flip it around and you are close.

 

I think it's terribly sad that the reaction to someone with an obvious mental disorder is to encourage their delusion and even give him major, life-altering cosmetic surgery.  Lord help me if I ever suffer from mental illness and instead of treatment I'm just encouraged to cut off my privates.

 

I also find it ridiculous that so many people (and a lot of the media) can simultaneously hate on and ridicule the whole Kardashian/Jenner clan for being attention-whores and completely screwed up in almot every way, while also praising Bruce Jenner as a courageous hero.  How can you not make any sort of connection between the two?

 

... and I'm not trying to take away anyone's rights as far as I know. Nor do I hate anyone involved in the sad, screwed up situation.

So...anyone who is gay, lesbian, bi, Trans etc has a mental disorder?

 

 

Pretty much... unless you think the suicide rates are so much higher for people like this because of bullying.  Check out the suicided rates of transgenders AFTER they have sex change surgery.