This evening on chat, Wbbfan & I got into a disagreement over what exactly the I formation is. I always knew the I to be 2 backs lined up directly behind the LOS with the fullback behind the qb & in front of the tailback. I had never seen the I out of shotgun or pistol as both backs would be too far behind the LOS to be effective. I know that Wbb mentioned that Joe Gibbs with the Redskins ran the I using the H Back. The H Back lines up where the TE would line up except off the line of scrimmage so at best he isn't a lead blocker on the play but a secondary blocker. The fullback is the primary blocker for his tailback on a running play. Now, I watch almost every  CFL game on TSN & I haven't seen the I Formation being used since at least 2009 when Mike Kelly used 2 running backs. I'm not even sure if he ran that formation as it was so long ago. I know in the CFL we only use a single back even in short yardage. That, along with the single back is not conducive for running the I.

Anyway, here's an article on the I Formation:

 

http://www.xsosfootball.com/i-formation-and-sets/

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 20169 yr by iso_55

None of that is canadian rules though. Those are all american. 

My point was, running short yardage out of pistol/shotgun is a poor call. Especially in the red zone. 

Almost all qb keeper short yardage / goal line offense sets are from the I form. So while you havent noticed it, youve seen it in every single game.

The ace forms are single tail back I form. The snap and kneel formation teams use is also I form.

Teams down south that use H back I form in which a portion of the time they line up with no FB.

The I form does not mean it has a FB. It means you dont have any off set backs. Such as pro form.  

 Kelly ran wing T / wildcat stuff that used some I form, some split back, some pro form and so on.

Edited August 4, 20169 yr by wbbfan

at 1:06 you see a pro set motion out of the pistol. Kind of a wild cat type option motion play. They use this look a lot.

 

at 40 seconds you see pro form / off set I type of play run where the FB is motioned to the TE spot. again at 1:26 and so on.

Goal line

In short yardage situations under center runs are the most productive. Not solely because of a blocking back but because of the head start the RB gets. If there is no hole, the fb just adds to a log jam. Few today are capable of moving the pile from fb depth. Most fb's in the cfl are teamers who are there to pick up extra blocks here n there and weight in at DE range. Pushing around some 300+ in side line men is rare. Especially since you pinch the line in that situation. 

 Most Tail backs are going to be hitting the line at full speed out of a deep set. The pistol helps with that, but still increases time from snap to rb while having less run up room for the tail back.

After what we say tonight, Id say just give the ball to normand and let him hurdle the line lol. 

Yes, the Sheets TD is absolutely the I formation for sure but the other 2 aren't. The Lions & Ti Cats are in pistol with the back behind the qb. The way the CFL is going, especially this year, they're getting away from running plays with tailbacks off tackle in short yardage. We saw Harris score a TD last night for a TD. Most times now it's zone read where qbs read the DE or OLB at the end of the LOS & pitch the ball or qbs running down the LOS looking for a hole to dive thru. That footage from the Riders is from 2013 where they were a run heavy team with a very strong OL & a thousand yard plus rusher in Sheets. While you are right, the Riders used the I to score that Sheets TD, I don't think that formation is  very widely used (I could be wrong).

 

 

9 minutes ago, iso_55 said:

Yes, the Sheets TD is absolutely the I formation for sure but the other 2 aren't. The Lions & Ti Cats are in pistol with the back behind the qb. The way the CFL is going, especially this year, they're getting away from running plays with tailbacks off tackle in short yardage. We saw Harris score a TD last night for a TD. Most times now it's zone read where qbs read the DE or OLB at the end of the LOS & pitch the ball or qbs running down the LOS looking for a hole to dive thru. That footage from the Riders is from 2013 where they were a run heavy team with a very strong OL & a thousand yard plus rusher in Sheets. While you are right, the Riders used the I to score that Sheets TD, I don't think that formation is  very widely used (I could be wrong).

 

 

The sheets play is what you see on the huge majority of Qb keepers, and goal line plays.

The other 2, are dual back pro set ran out of the pistol. Your chat argument was that the I form was based on 2 backs with a FB lead blocking. All those plays have 2 backs with a lead blocker. Ott uses the 2 back set even more.

We saw harris score a td last night for a td? Idk what you mean by that. We run between the tackles A LOT. I wish we ran off tackle more. 

Virtually every play since the dawn of football has had the qb with the option to pull it on a running play. Doesnt happen often as it can make transitions handing the ball off rough.  

 

Probably a typo. Harris scored a TD running the football on 2nd down. He actually went off tackle & the big OL just washed everybody down & he just waltzed in.

9 minutes ago, iso_55 said:

Probably a typo. Harris scored a TD running the football on 2nd down. He actually went off tackle & the big OL just washed everybody down & he just waltzed in.

yeah he did. But when teams are 2nd or 3rd and one and dive, thats I form. Or when they go goal line. MB loved to run draws and dives out of the gun/pistol in the red zone too. Never worked well for us. 

I'm going to pay more attention to see if teams run the I Form more than I thought at goal line or short yardage.

The other thing I noticed this season is that teams aren't using their backup qbs to run as much short yardage. Nicholls just stays in. I guess they don't want to get Drew Willy hurt or sacrificed at $410,000 a year. The Bombers could use Davis but choose not to. But I noticed BC uses Jennings, BLM is starting to play more short yardage over Andrew Buckley. Ottawa kept Burris in on short yardage last game. Before that Harris. Brock Jensen may have been used earlier in the season. In recent seasons past, if a starting qb was hurt & out for a number of games, the #2 qb would move up & the #3 would take over short yardage.

 

Wasn't there a change to the timing rules this year that made it advantageous to run a high-tempo offence?

Maybe the idea with using the starters in short yardage is to line up quickly with no substitutions and not allow the D to bring in extra short-yardage beef?  Like maybe you were 2nd and long and you were facing a D lineup biased for the pass. Then you have a good second down play and you're third and short and you want to run your short yardage against that undersized D, so you go tempo offence, line up and run it.

(this is an interesting thread guys, thanks for posting it.  Love seeing posts that refer to video.)

Edited August 6, 20169 yr by johnzo

1 hour ago, johnzo said:

Wasn't there a change to the timing rules this year that made it advantageous to run a high-tempo offence?

Maybe the idea with using the starters in short yardage is to line up quickly with no substitutions and not allow the D to bring in extra short-yardage beef?  Like maybe you were 2nd and long and you were facing a D lineup biased for the pass. Then you have a good second down play and you're third and short and you want to run your short yardage against that undersized D, so you go tempo offence, line up and run it.

(this is an interesting thread guys, thanks for posting it.  Love seeing posts that refer to video.)

Its allways been a heavy advantage to run a hurry up offense. It how ever takes a great deal of co ordination and smooth fluid communication from all the players and the sideline. The best offenses in modern cfl history for the most part will use sub packages and set up plays (screen passes then hitch n go, pump n go etc) to get the defense to change personnel. Some D rotate players regularly. Like our DL. You get a favorable match up and go right into hurry up to force the D to stay in that favorable match up. It also gets you to the line fast enough that the QB can read coverage and change the play or tweak it. Or Do a run up. Where it seems like the offense is about to snap but doesnt. This forces the D to tip there hand and often times if they have any thing tricky called to return to a base form D.

But like i started with, that is very hard to run. If you can execute a high up time hurry up offense you can do any thing you want on O. 

Some teams have done that for short yardage, or Under some previous coaches we'd go spread package no backs and try to thin out the defense. The idea being its 4 DL on 5 ol and a qb. Again you have to have an over power OL to pull that off. And if you can pull that off normally a traditional heavy set wont be any harder. 

Our offense with both qbs has looked its best in hurry up. But cant yet sustain it. But with the constant shuffle we have seen with offensive starters its hard to build the consistent communication and execution to pull it off.   

Great stuff guys 

On 8/4/2016 at 2:34 AM, wbbfan said:

The sheets play is what you see on the huge majority of Qb keepers, and goal line plays.

The other 2, are dual back pro set ran out of the pistol. Your chat argument was that the I form was based on 2 backs with a FB lead blocking. All those plays have 2 backs with a lead blocker. Ott uses the 2 back set even more.

We saw harris score a td last night for a td? Idk what you mean by that. We run between the tackles A LOT. I wish we ran off tackle more. 

Virtually every play since the dawn of football has had the qb with the option to pull it on a running play. Doesnt happen often as it can make transitions handing the ball off rough.  

 

Are you talking about running the ball outside the tackle? Because Off Tackle running is when the RB uses the tackle as the primary blocker and if the Tackle blocks towards the line he goes outside of the tackle, if the DE/LB takes and outside rush and the Tackle blocks to the outside the RB runs inside the tackles block.

 

4 hours ago, Engelwood said:

Are you talking about running the ball outside the tackle? Because Off Tackle running is when the RB uses the tackle as the primary blocker and if the Tackle blocks towards the line he goes outside of the tackle, if the DE/LB takes and outside rush and the Tackle blocks to the outside the RB runs inside the tackles block.

 

what?

The tackle isnt allways the primary blocker in a tackle/off tackle run. In a zone blocking play the play side tackle may go to the 2nd level while the center and guard slide to that side. When you pull a guard as in a trap. trey or counter play thats your primary blocker. Or in those situations i poster its the FB/H-back who seals the end for the rb.

In the cfl  you dont see Lbers on a run blitz/blitz in running situations too often. Its usually a DE thats making a play like that in the back field. Drawing it up like that you need to seen a pull blocker or have a lead blocker as its too easy for the DT to slide and close a B gap. You cant control if the DT is going to line up in that gap, over the OL twist etc which would all nullify a tackle going to the second level with out the added blocker.

What you see a lot in recent years on tackle/off tackle runs is the offense having a slot back in motion late and providing a pinch block to help the tackle seal the edge. Its easier to do that and have the opposite side guard hit the second level and seal the MLB> 

On 2016-08-04 at 4:14 AM, iso_55 said:

Probably a typo. Harris scored a TD running the football on 2nd down. He actually went off tackle & the big OL just washed everybody down & he just waltzed in.

You mean against Hamilton the other day? I think two big blocks were made by Jake Thomas and Sholigan...

 

On 8/5/2016 at 11:29 PM, wbbfan said:

Its allways been a heavy advantage to run a hurry up offense. It how ever takes a great deal of co ordination and smooth fluid communication from all the players and the sideline. The best offenses in modern cfl history for the most part will use sub packages and set up plays (screen passes then hitch n go, pump n go etc) to get the defense to change personnel. Some D rotate players regularly. Like our DL. You get a favorable match up and go right into hurry up to force the D to stay in that favorable match up. It also gets you to the line fast enough that the QB can read coverage and change the play or tweak it. Or Do a run up. Where it seems like the offense is about to snap but doesnt. This forces the D to tip there hand and often times if they have any thing tricky called to return to a base form D.

But like i started with, that is very hard to run. If you can execute a high up time hurry up offense you can do any thing you want on O. 

Some teams have done that for short yardage, or Under some previous coaches we'd go spread package no backs and try to thin out the defense. The idea being its 4 DL on 5 ol and a qb. Again you have to have an over power OL to pull that off. And if you can pull that off normally a traditional heavy set wont be any harder. 

Our offense with both qbs has looked its best in hurry up. But cant yet sustain it. But with the constant shuffle we have seen with offensive starters its hard to build the consistent communication and execution to pull it off.   

Wasn't it a couple years ago where the Bombers tried to run a consistent high-tempo offense and the ref's would take eons to blow the ball into play, thereby completely cancelling the advantage of up-tempo.

 

I vaguely remember the league changing something to make up tempo more possible recently.

3 hours ago, Valderan_CA said:

Wasn't it a couple years ago where the Bombers tried to run a consistent high-tempo offense and the ref's would take eons to blow the ball into play, thereby completely cancelling the advantage of up-tempo.

 

I vaguely remember the league changing something to make up tempo more possible recently.

yes the refs were a real problem and they are supposed to get the ball up to the line quicker now. Reviews still take 3 years though.