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The Unknown Poster

The Mysteries Thread

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22 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

People always react to those interviews.  It wasnt that he was happy, it was that he smiled at various times.  I mean, is he supposed to be devastated and in a state of grief 24/7 twenty years later?  He was very young.  He had a weird way about him in his interview, almost detached.  But according to Dr Phil, Burke is very uncomfortable in front of cameras and was very nervous.  I didnt see anything outwardly odd about him in the interview.  Seemed like a normal guy talking about an awful situation that happened two decades ago.

ABC 20 20 tonight. 

Apparently a juror in the trial will be on and sharing some secret evidence that points to who the killer might be. Apparently the juror will name who he/she thinks it was 

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Really is. Pretty obvious the cops pretty much immediately came to the conclusion it was John Patsy or Burke and never really thought it could be anyone else.  So they might have missed or even dismissed evidence that suggested perhaps it wasn't.  I still think it was 1 of them... who? I'm not sure but it just seems like it was 1 of those 3. Patsy? In a rage of anger snapped.  John? Doubtful. Burke?  Possible for sure by accident. 

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33 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Really is. Pretty obvious the cops pretty much immediately came to the conclusion it was John Patsy or Burke and never really thought it could be anyone else.  So they might have missed or even dismissed evidence that suggested perhaps it wasn't.  I still think it was 1 of them... who? I'm not sure but it just seems like it was 1 of those 3. Patsy? In a rage of anger snapped.  John? Doubtful. Burke?  Possible for sure by accident. 

Odds are it was one of them.  Thats a fact based on statistics of murdered children, especially found dead in the home.  But that doesnt preclude this being that one very rare incident of an intruder hanging out for hours, killing the child, staging the scene and making their escape.  It's just wildly bizarre if true.

I've read several books that keep switching my suspicions.  Usually Im pretty definitive about these things (and generally pretty accurate in my own assessment of a crime).  But this one is so tough. 

The juror will likely say they felt John and Patsy did it (or covered for Burke).  Because we know the jury voted for indictment.  The DA decided not to arrest them feeling that there was too much reasonable doubt.

The DNA is probably the main sticking point.  It "exonerated" the Ramsey's.  But if it is now in question, it changes things.  Will it indicate a Ramsey connection?  Will it be eliminated as evidence? 

The ransom note is key.  It seems so obvious that it was an inside job and an attempt at cover up and misdirection.  But because its so obvious, it could also be the fantastic ramblings of a film-obsessed nut.  That's the problem with this case - its so crazy, every piece of evidence points in two different directions.

If you had to bet, you'd bet that John, Patsy or Burke did it.  Thats playing the odds.

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I actually have no idea, it's so odd. That detective that brought in sure makes a strong case about it possibly being an intruder... I mean it does kind of make sense but what kind of makes me think it was one of Patsy or Burke is the ransom note, It's just so sketchy it seems, was written off of Patsys notepad and everything, her paint brush was used, I dunno...If i had to guess for real i'd say Patsy, but part of me thinks maybe just maybe it was an intruder of sorts. I dunno, not sure we ever will tho.

 

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7 minutes ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

This is heartbreaking. And ridiculous.  The only reason is money. Money! Are you kidding me?

this is one of the greatest aviation mysteries of all time. These are real people missing. You don't just give up. 

Brutal. 

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This sums up how I feel:

Voice370, a support group for family members of those aboard the flight, released a statement expressing their disappointment.
"Commercial planes cannot just be allowed to disappear without a trace," the statement said.
"Stopping at this stage is nothing short of irresponsible, and betrays a shocking lack of faith in the data, tools and recommendations of an array of official experts assembled by the authorities themselves."
 
How can the world allow this plane to disappear and not continue to search until they find it?  Its not like its on Mars.  Its in the South Pacific.  Map the entire Pacific Ocean if you have t.  all it takes is time and money.

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14 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

This sums up how I feel:

Voice370, a support group for family members of those aboard the flight, released a statement expressing their disappointment.
"Commercial planes cannot just be allowed to disappear without a trace," the statement said.
"Stopping at this stage is nothing short of irresponsible, and betrays a shocking lack of faith in the data, tools and recommendations of an array of official experts assembled by the authorities themselves."
 
How can the world allow this plane to disappear and not continue to search until they find it?  Its not like its on Mars.  Its in the South Pacific.  Map the entire Pacific Ocean if you have t.  all it takes is time and money.

Maybe TIGHAR will look for it during the next winter :P

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I thought we had a True Crime thread but this will have to do as its sort of a mystery still

Enough debating semantics in US Politics...the Casey Anthony case is back in the spotlight as we approach the ten year anniversary and her parents have a new interview to A&E this week.

Im curious what people think.  The theories:

- Casey killed Caylee in cold blood to be rid of her

- Casey killed Caylee by accident (probably while drugging her to put her to sleep)

- Caylee accidentally drowned in the pool and Casey covered it up

- Caylee accidentally drowned in the pool and George covered it up with Casey's knowledge

- Something else (Zanny the non-existent nanny)

Follow up discussion point: The Jury acquitted Casey and said the reason they did was the State had not proven its case.  They all felt Casey was responsible in some way but felt there was no evidence.  Some said the George theory seemed reasonable.   Do you agree with the jury or do you think the jury got it wrong?

Ie. Do you think Casey was guilty or innocent and if guilty did the Jury do the correct thing in letting her off?

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20 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I thought we had a True Crime thread but this will have to do as its sort of a mystery still

Enough debating semantics in US Politics...the Casey Anthony case is back in the spotlight as we approach the ten year anniversary and her parents have a new interview to A&E this week.

Im curious what people think.  The theories:

- Casey killed Caylee in cold blood to be rid of her

- Casey killed Caylee by accident (probably while drugging her to put her to sleep)

- Caylee accidentally drowned in the pool and Casey covered it up

- Caylee accidentally drowned in the pool and George covered it up with Casey's knowledge

- Something else (Zanny the non-existent nanny)

Follow up discussion point: The Jury acquitted Casey and said the reason they did was the State had not proven its case.  They all felt Casey was responsible in some way but felt there was no evidence.  Some said the George theory seemed reasonable.   Do you agree with the jury or do you think the jury got it wrong?

Ie. Do you think Casey was guilty or innocent and if guilty did the Jury do the correct thing in letting her off?

If I remember the case correctly, the problem with that case is that the prosecutors got over zealous and stuck to a first degree murder charge, when the evidence did not support that. Had they gone with second degree murder, or a similar, lesser charge, it would have been a much easier case to make. First degree murder requires clear intent, and without a body or witnesses it was never realistic. She's definitely guilty of something.

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On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎17 at 7:50 AM, The Unknown Poster said:

This sums up how I feel:

Voice370, a support group for family members of those aboard the flight, released a statement expressing their disappointment.
"Commercial planes cannot just be allowed to disappear without a trace," the statement said.
"Stopping at this stage is nothing short of irresponsible, and betrays a shocking lack of faith in the data, tools and recommendations of an array of official experts assembled by the authorities themselves."
 
How can the world allow this plane to disappear and not continue to search until they find it?  Its not like its on Mars.  Its in the South Pacific.  Map the entire Pacific Ocean if you have t.  all it takes is time and money.

No guarantees they'd ever find it. Looks like the Pacific or Indian Ocean swallowed it up. At it's deepest the Pacific Ocean is over 35,000 feet deep. Very difficult to map something thru so much water & topography as it would cause distortions. How much more can they do? Like Amelia Earhardt, despite many searches the past 80 years, her plane was never found. Private individuals & companies will continue the search for the missing airliner. It may ultimately become the biggest mystery since Earhardt. 

Edited by SpeedFlex27

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10 hours ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

Terrible news.  Hopefully the governments involved continue to look.  Its there somewhere.  It only takes effort and money to find it.

11 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

No guarantees they'd ever find it. Looks like the Pacific or Indian Ocean swallowed it up. At it's deepest the Pacific Ocean is over 35,000 feet deep. Very difficult to map something thru so much water & topography as it would cause distortions. How much more can they do? Like Amelia Earhardt, despite many searches the past 80 years, her plane was never found. Private individuals & companies will continue the search for the missing airliner. It may ultimately become the biggest mystery since Earhardt. 

The big difference is technology.  And they probably could have found Earhardt, maybe alive, had they made a better effort and had better tech back then. As it is, they *probably* found the island she landed on recently but its almost impossible to prove.  There was a skeleton found but they lost it.

Regarding MH, its not just a matter of interest, its 1) a lot of dead people  2) I think there is an obligation to learn what happened to avoid it happening again

On 6/1/2018 at 11:32 AM, itchy said:

If I remember the case correctly, the problem with that case is that the prosecutors got over zealous and stuck to a first degree murder charge, when the evidence did not support that. Had they gone with second degree murder, or a similar, lesser charge, it would have been a much easier case to make. First degree murder requires clear intent, and without a body or witnesses it was never realistic. She's definitely guilty of something.

I agree that people thought the Prosecution over-charged.  But the jury actually had the option of going with a lower-charge.  They had First Degree, Second Degree and even Manslaughter.  Many juroers said they felt Casey was involved but that the prosecution had not proven their case.  And they bought the defense theory that George was somehow involved.  I think the George theory is ludicrous and Im not what else the Jury needed to convince Casey.

If it was me, I'd have probably gone with 2nd degree murder.  For a long time I felt she killed Caylee by accident while drugging her.  But I now think she killed her deliberately by knocking her out with Chloroform and then putting duct tape over he nose & mouth.  She put her in the trunk and didnt think about her for a few days.  She stole gas cans from her dad and Im not sure if that was a coincidence (she ran out of gas fairly often it seems) or if its connected (was she going to try to burn the body or did she place gas cans in the trunk to mask the smell?)

George was home one day when Casey returned and Casey was surprised to see him.  He demanded the gas cans back and went to the car.  Casey bolted past him and took the cans out herself. 

She might have considered burying Caylee in the backyard of her parents home.  She returned another day and borrowed a shovel from a neighbor but returned it unused.  And I wonder if that was the formation of a plan to frame her dad or if she just realised it would be too hard to pull off the burial.

The fact she dumped the body so close to her house, but in an area she'd know (along a path that was only used by people going to the school) lends credence to her sort of panicking about how to bury the body.  Digging a big hole isnt easy. 

Caylee was in two garbage bags of the same kind her parents used and then inside a laundry bag.  It was the same type that Casey's mom had at the house which was sold in a pair (one rectangular, one cylindrical).  At the house, they still had the rectangular one but the cylindrical one was missing.  Caylee was buried in the cylindrical one.

Caylee was wrapped in a Winnie the Pooh blanket.  At the house, her room was decorated wit Winnie the Pooh including the same pattern as seen on the blanket.  Casey's mother confirmed a blanket was missing.

The duct tape over her mouth & nose came from the same role of duct tape from the home.

There were computer searches for chloroform which Cindy (Casey's mom) later claimed were hers but I read her statement to the police and its absurd.  There was also a search for "Fool Proof Suffocation" which the prosecution did not find initially as their IT person didnt check Firefox.  That search was conducted the day Caylee was last seen.  It presented a bit of a problem because George claimed Caylee and Casey left before hand (at like 1PM) and George left for work at 2:30 and the search for Fool Proof Suffocation was made later in the afternoon.  But Cell Phone pinks showed Casey remained in the area when she left.  So its reasonable she left (she had been lying about having a job) and returned when she knew the house would be empty.  The search also came between activity on her MySpace and MSN chats with friends so the think the search was anyone else is absurd.  It was deleted the day she was arrested.

Casey had changed her MySpace password around this time and told her brother her new password was about Caylee.  The new password was Timer55.  From the day Caylee went missing to her 3rd birthday was 55 days.  She knew that her mother was naive and intimidated enough to be kept at bay for awhile, but there was no way she'd get around keeping Caylee away for her 3rd birthday.  When Casey killed her, it began a timer of 55 days (or so she thought) before she'd have to have a plan.

I dont know what her end game was.  Her fatal mistake was letting her car be impounded.  She had parked it in a strip mall parking lot, next to a BFI bin (coincidence or to mask the smell?)  She had dumped the body by this point but the body had begun to decompose in the trunk and there was no getting rid of the smell.  It was the impound yard sending George a letter that set in motion Casey getting caught.  Both parents immediately felt the odor was of "death" and before the trunk was open both claimed they worried that Casey or Caylee was in the trunk.  George Anthony had been a homicide detective.  He knew.  Cindy later changed her story and covered for Casey, claiming she didnt think it smelled that bad.

In the trunk, they found Caylee's hair with a death band (indicative of hair dropped after death) plus chemical traces of decomposition and large amounts of chloroform odor.

I think Casey either left the car where she did thinking it would just sit there (and not be towed).  She might have reported it stolen when it was time to trigger her plan.  Or the smell was so overwhelming, she didnt know what to do. 

I think she planned to leave town (even though she had no money).  She had suddenly created a lie that a former bf had come back into her life and every time she talked to her mom, she advanced their relationship.  One theory is, she'd create an elopement and sudden move to avoid ever coming clean.  Or she'd eventually use the kidnap story but so long after Caylee's death to make it difficult to prove anything.

The weird thing about the kidnap story is Casey claimed her long-time nanny Zanny had kidnapped Caylee.  But the nanny had never existed.  However, the name DID exist.  And oddly, the real person was from New York (Casey had claimed the fake Zanny had NY plates).  It seems clear Casey had somehow learned of this person but they never figured out how.

The FBI found what they believed to be remnants of a heart shaped sticker over the duct tape over the mouth.  By the time the tape bounced around for testing, they couldn't prove it.  But Casey had a sheet of heart stickers in her room that were the right size and shape to what the FBI tech said she saw.

Seemed pretty clear to me that Casey did it.  At the time, I'd have gone 2nd Degree.  Now, I think she planned it.  First degree.  Im opposed to the death penalty and would not have supported it but the Prosecution did present it as an option to the jury.

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To get back to discussing the missing Malaysian Airliner. I have an app on my phone called Flight Radar 24.It tracks each flight in the world in real time. In November of 2016 my son had travelled to New Zealand. I texted him before he left with his flight info on his flight back from Auckland to Vancouver. When his flight took off I was able to track it. About 3 hours later his flight just disappeared from the app on my screen. I was a little concerned but after an hour his flight reappeared only to disappear a half an hour later. Eventually the flight reappeared again but by that time I had gone to bed. Next morning I checked again & his flight was approaching North America. My point here is that the Pacific Ocean is so vast. There are areas where planes literally disappear for great lengths of time as there are no islands or no continents even close. It is so isolated that even with GPS technology the planes still disappear. To me, this is what happened. They were lost in an isolated part of the world over nothing but thousands of square klms of water with no land anywhere. Plus, if they veered off course & crashed, no amount of modern technology will find them if the aircraft went down in 35,000 feet of water which may have happened. If we can't find people lost in the bush on land in Canada how can we expect technology to find a lost plane over the Pacific or Indian Ocean?

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12 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

To get back to discussing the missing Malaysian Airliner. I have an app on my phone called Flight Radar 24.It tracks each flight in the world in real time. In November of 2016 my son had travelled to New Zealand. I texted him before he left with his flight info on his flight back from Auckland to Vancouver. When his flight took off I was able to track it. About 3 hours later his flight just disappeared from the app on my screen. I was a little concerned but after an hour his flight reappeared only to disappear a half an hour later. Eventually the flight reappeared again but by that time I had gone to bed. Next morning I checked again & his flight was approaching North America. My point here is that the Pacific Ocean is so vast. There are areas where planes literally disappear for great lengths of time as there are no islands or no continents even close. It is so isolated that even with GPS technology the planes still disappear. To me, this is what happened. They were lost in an isolated part of the world over nothing but thousands of square klms of water with no land anywhere. Plus, if they veered off course & crashed, no amount of modern technology will find them if the aircraft went down in 35,000 feet of water which may have happened. If we can't find people lost in the bush on land in Canada how can we expect technology to find a lost plane over the Pacific or Indian Ocean?

The only reason they would have been in an area where they could not be tracked is because they were flown off-course.  Their flight path would have kept them in constant contact.  And ofcourse, they were tracked for quite some time, turning off their flight path. That's the root of the mystery.  Why did they fly in the opposite direction?

Anything can be found if enough time, effort, technology and money is dedicated to finding it.  The plane is in the ocean.  The ocean is vast.  But they can find it.

Look at Air France 447.  The ACARS was working (unlike MH) so they had a good idea of its last position. They found floating debris within a day.  And it still took over a year to find the plane on the bottom of the ocean.

One aspect that points to deliberate action is, if you wanted to make it as hard as possible to ever find, you'd crash the plane where MH is believed to have crashed.  Its basically the hardest place to find something.

Hopefully they keep looking. 

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10 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

The only reason they would have been in an area where they could not be tracked is because they were flown off-course.  Their flight path would have kept them in constant contact.  And ofcourse, they were tracked for quite some time, turning off their flight path. That's the root of the mystery.  Why did they fly in the opposite direction?

Anything can be found if enough time, effort, technology and money is dedicated to finding it.  The plane is in the ocean.  The ocean is vast.  But they can find it.

Look at Air France 447.  The ACARS was working (unlike MH) so they had a good idea of its last position. They found floating debris within a day.  And it still took over a year to find the plane on the bottom of the ocean.

One aspect that points to deliberate action is, if you wanted to make it as hard as possible to ever find, you'd crash the plane where MH is believed to have crashed.  Its basically the hardest place to find something.

Hopefully they keep looking. 

Doesn't look like a fairy tale ending here... Time will tell. 

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Any other True Crime junkies here?

Let's talk about the mysterious death of Kathleen Peterson.  If you're planning to watch The Staircase on Netflix, this post will spoil it for you so leave now, go watch it and come back!

Kathleen Peterson lived in North Carolina with her husband Michael Peterson, her daughter from a previous relationship and his two adoptive daughters (this becomes important).  He also had two grown sons from a previous marriage.

They were wealthy as Kathleen was a Nortel executive and Michael was an author.

On December 8th 2001, Michael called 911 to report he found his wife at the bottom of the stairs in a pool of blood.  He reported to 911 that she must have fallen down the stairs.  Subsequent investigations indicated she had suffered 7 lacerations to the back of her heard (and a few other assorted minor injuries).  The Staircase was covered in blood up to the first few steps and there was blood on the lower half of the walls.

The medical examiner determined the head lacerations were due to blunt force trauma and Michael was arrested and charge with first degree murder.  The family stood by Michael including, initially, Kathleen's daughter.  The daughter was shown the autopsy photos and changed her mind, believing Michael had killed her mom.  Kathleen's daughter & sister became major driver's of the case for years.

Twist One:

It came out that Michael was bi-sexual, something no one knew.  He claimed Kathleen did know and was okay with it (though he later said in The Staircase that she didnt know, which I was confused about).  The prosecution made this a major part of their case (which the Judge later admitted he probably shouldn't have allowed in).  Michael had affairs with men including a male prostitute and had gay porn on his computer, all of which was entered into evidence and used by the Prosecution to argue that the marriage sucked and that Michael was essentially a deviant who killed his wife when she learned the truth.

Twist Two:

Michael had been a marine in his younger days and lived in Germany.  His then-wife and he became very close friends with another couple who had two daughters (the aforementioned "adoptive" daughters).  The husband died and the wife, Elizabeth Ratliff, lived next door to Michael and his wife who helped her with the children.  One day, the woman was found dead at the bottom of her stairs.  Authorities ruled the cause a cerebral hemorrhage and closed the case.  Michael became guardian of Ratliff's two girls.

The Prosecutors in the case of Kathleen Peterson successfully brought Ratliff's death in as evidence.  They had Ratliff's body exhumed and examined by their medical examiners who ruled it a homicide.  The Judge later said he probably shouldn't have allowed this evidence.

Twist Three:

The Prosecutor's theory was that Michael attacked his wife with a Blow Poke, which is a hollow fireplace poker you can blow through.  Kathleen's sister had given them as gifts to family member but the one she gave Kathleen & Michael was mysteriously missing.  The medical examiner ruled that the blow poke was the likely murder weapon due to its size, shape and weight. 

The key thing was the lacerations to Kathleen's head caused massive blood loss but did not fracture her skull or cause any damage to the brain.  She essentially bled to death.

Two days before the Defence would give their closing argument, Micheal's son found the Blow Poke in the basement garage.  It had clearly not been used in a murder.  This shattered the Prosecutor's theory.

Twist Four:

It was later learned, years later, that the police had actually found the Blow Poke when doing their initial search of the home following Kathleen's death and had photographed it and put it back in the garage.  So the entire time the Prosecution was presenting its argument that the missing Blow Poke was the murder weapon, the police knew it was NOT the murder weapon and was not missing at all.

None of that mattered (as the Jury later said it had little impact on them whether the weapon used was the Blow Poke or something else).  Michael was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison.

Twist Five:

One of the prosecutions key witnesses, Duane Deaver, was a blood spatter expert.  He was so critical to the case that in the Prosecutions' closing argument they focused on his experiments and expert testimony and said to the jury, if you dont find Michael guilty you are saying Deaver is a liar.

Unfortunately for the Prosecution, Deaver was a liar.  He was later fired when it was found he lied about his qualifications and experience and did crazy experiments to prove his theories that were not best practice in his field.  Additionally, when Kathleen's clothes were originally sent by police for DNA testing, Deaver intercepted them and brought them to his area, blood spatter analysis, rather than DNA testing.  No DNA testing was done and the clothes, along with other evidence, was later mishandled and improperly stored making it impossible to test for DNA and eliminating the possible defence theory of an intruder.

Due to Deaver, the conviction was over-turned and a new trial ordered.  But Michael had already spent 8 years in prison.

Micheal's defence was that he and Kathleen had been drinking wine and watched a movie.  After the movie, they went outside on the deck and then down to their pool where they continued to drink wine.  Kathleen was tired, took a Valium and went to bed while Michael continued sitting by the pool.  When he finally came inside, he found his wife's body.

Michael's original lawyer tried to negotiate a plea agreement to end the case but the DA refused, driven by Kathleen's sister and daughter.  When it appeared it was heading to a second trial, the attorney bowed out (by this time, Michael had no money).  He referred Michael to another lawyer who had helped get a wrongfully convicted man released.  They asked for a hearing to dismiss the charges against Michael based on bad behavior by the prosecution experts.  But days before the hearing, the lawyer suffered a stroke and his second-chair took over.  She seemed to me (in watching The Staircase) to be out of her element.  They lost the hearing a new trial date was set.

Michael clearly felt she was out of her element too as he called his original lawyer and asked him to come back.  He did so and negotiated an Alford Plea where Michael would plead guilty while maintaining his innocence and be given time served.  The Judge accepted and Michael was free to go, now officially a convicted felon.

What's the point of all this?  The craziest twist of all (which was not shown in The Staircase):

The Owl Theory:

This seemingly insane theory was posited by an attorney who was not involved in the case but lived in Michael's neighborhood.  He followed the case and saw that evidence collected included owl feathers that were clutched in Kathleen's hand along with clumps of her hair that had been pulled out by the roots.  There was also a sliver of wood from a tree in her hand.

This theory was ridiculed until more experts examined the evidence: The lacerations on Kathleen's scalp her tri-lobed and paired, consistent with marks left by talons.  Cedar needles were found on Kathleen's hands and body indicating she had fallen just before entering the home.   The blood had spattered UP the staircase rather then down (and there was very little castoff blood which you'd expect in a beating with a blunt instrument, which the prosecution argued meant Michael cleaned the weapon after every blow).  Footprints in the blood made by Kathleen indicated she was bleeding before she fell at the stairs.    Two drops of her blood were found outside the home.

Owl attacks were common in the area and victims report it feels like a baseball bat to the head.

Several experts accepted this as possible suggesting an owl attacked her as she was going towards the house.  In her frenzy to defend herself, she pulled at the owl, resulting in the feathers and her hair ending up on her hands.  She would be bleeding quite badly as she got to the stair case.  The combination of alcohol, Valium and the attack left her woozy and she fell on the stairs, knocking herself unconscious.  Since Michael remained by the pool for some time, Kathleen bled to death.

This theory has never been argued and cant be now.  But Michael's original attorney said had he been aware of it he likely would have raised it as a possibility at trial.

When I watched the Staircase, by about episode 4 I was convinced Michael did it.  Mainly because hes not very likeable (seems very slick), plus the previous staircase death and the photos of the crime scene.  By the end, I dont know what happened but if I was on the jury, I'd have had reasonable doubt.

 

 

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Rather then cluttering the TV Thread with talk about the Avery case....

His new lawyer (from Making A Murder Season 2) did a twitter thread yesterday revealing new information (and Q&A).  Pretty interesting:

Quote
  1. On 10/31/05, Scott Tadych visited Bobby at the Avery salvage yard (ASY) around noon.

  2. After Teresa (TH) called the Dassey landline for directions, our suspect contacted her back with the Dassey address.

  3. Teresa arrived at the ASY around 2:30–2:31 p.m. on 10/31/05. Only Bobby and Steven saw her. After completing her photo assignment, she left & turned West on Hwy 147 around 2:38 p.m. Our suspect followed her. Steven was in his trailer.

  4. Our suspect gets TH to pull over. She opened her car's rear cargo door to retrieve her camera, was knocked to the ground and struck with an object.

  5. TH was put in the rear cargo area of the RAV4 and driven back to ASY.

  6. TH's RAV4 was spotted leaving the ASY with an unknown driver at 3:45 p.m.

  7. RAV4 was left by the old dam West of Mishicot on 10/31/05.

  8. 3 witnesses saw RAV4 up to 11/4/05, then it was gone.

  9. Recent investigation shows the RAV4 battery died, so it was replaced in order to move the RAV4 to the ASY.

  10. TH's body was burned in a burn barrel. Dassey burn barrel had human bones

  11. 60% of bones and 31 teeth missing

  12. A witness smelled horrible odor of something burning in Manitowoc County gravel pit the evening of 10/31/05.

  13. The Dassey garage was never luminoled or DNA tested. Bobby hung a deer in the Dassey garage on 11/4/05.

  14. Sikikey note—Body burned at smelter 11/4/05, 3 a.m. Tadych worked the night shift at a smelter facility. His nickname: Skinny.

  15. TH's electronics were not burned in Steven's burn barrel; they were burned in Dassey burn barrel.

  16. Suspect knew Steven's finger re-bled on 11/3/05 because he observed it.

  17. Suspect had access to Steven's trailer to remove blood from the sink.

  18. Only our suspect knew the blood in the sink was Steven's and not TH's (this rules out the police).

  19. Suspect planted blood in RAV4, bones in Steven's burn pit, and TH's electronics in Steven's burn barrel.

  20. In conclusion, the killer is the person who had the access and opportunity to plant Steven Avery's fresh blood in Teresa Halbach's car. Use #AskZellner for questions


Zellner's Q&As

Q: Do you think it was Bobby?

A: We cannot rule him out.

Q: Police?

A: No access. No opportunity. Not the blood vial.

Q: Has Bobby's garage been searched for DNA & blood?

A: Yes. In progress.

Q: Is there any evidence on if Bobby and Scott had contact with Ryan before the killing?

A: No proof of that.

Q: How do we know Scott was on ASY at noon?

A: Witness confirms.

Q: Is there evidence that supports they knew there was fresh blood in his home or did they enter the home just in hopes of finding plantable DNA?

A: There is evidence the person knew Steven's cut finger broke open and that he bled on 11/3.

Q: How do you know [the battery] was replaced?

A: We've confirmed that it was replaced with the wrong-sized battery for the RAV4—the same size battery that is used in Crown Victorias.

Q: Where is the call log proof that your suspect called TH back with the address?

A: Not restricted to a call log.

Q: How do we know the battery died?

A: Because it was replaced with the wrong size battery and it was still under warranty.

Q: What evidence shows the electrical items were moved from Dassey burn barrel to SA burn barrel?

A: Nothing was burned in SA's burn barrel. Tin cans and vegetation present. Radandt saw fire in Dassey burn barrel.

Q: Have you had access to the RAV4 yet?

A: No. This is an issue on appeal.

Q: 60% of bones and 31 teeth missing from the Dassey barrel, you mean? Because they were removed and transported to the Avery barrel?

A: They are missing entirely from ASY.

Q: Are we sure it was the Rav4 seen leaving at 3:45? This was Blaine's account of what happened, but he now says it wasn't the Rav (as I understand).

A: We have two other witnesses.

Q: Have you done any background checks on Bobby Dassey such as: interviewing people who have possibly witnessed abusive behavior from him, or possibly hired on expert in criminal psychology to evaluate his behavior?

A: We have had experts evaluate the violent porn and create a profile.

Q: Was the witness that smelled the foul odor burning ever questioned? Is he/ she affiliated w Scott's work place?

A: We have an affidavit from the witness; there is no connection with Scott's workplace

Q: What is the significance of Scott Tadych being at ASY at 12 noon that day?

A: Because the contact with Teresa requesting the address is made close to the point in time when he's present.

Q: Is there any evidence of a body being burned at the smelting facility?

A: A witness, who wrote the note. But the body would have disintegrated.

Q: I fully believe Bobby killed Theresa & for whatever reason Scott was involved in coverup. However, is it really believable that either would realistically remember SA’s finger bleeding & think to take SA’s blood from the sink? 🤔

A: Of course. The police had just been on the property and he would have been panicked to divert attention from himself.

Q: Aside from a witness saying Scott was on shift, is there CCTV? Clock cards? Payroll records that back this up??

A: Yes.

Q: Apologies if I am repeating a previous question, can you speculate as to motive by suspect? “$ponsorship” from others?

A: It was a rage killing motivated by rejection.

Q: What is the significance of Scott Tadych being at ASY at 12 noon that day?

A: Because it's after TH called requesting contact with directions. Plus, he lied and said he was in Green Bay visiting his mother at the hospital.

Q: Bobby's computer shows activity at 1:51. Was the computer used to communicate with Teresa or was this via someone else's phone?

A: Communication was not by phone.

Q: Has the suspect been questioned on this?

A: He was questioned in a lame interview by Investigator Dedering.

Q: What's the best explanation for the scratches on Bobby's back?

A: They are inconsistent with scratches from a puppy. Consistent with scratches from the fingers of a human hand.

Q: Why has Bobby not been re questioned and DNA tested after these findings?

A: Bobby was re-questioned in a lame interview with Investigator Dedering.

Q: Would Bobby have access to Stevens blood?

A: Yes. He had access to Steven's blood because he had access to Steven's trailer on 11/3/05.

Q: Who gave Teresa directions? and how did they know to give it to her?

A: We believe the killer gave TH directions.

Q: Any witnesses from the smelting plant where Scott works come forward?

A: We've interviewed witnesses.

Q: Was there any video surveillance at the smelter facility?

A: No.

Q: So was this the same burn barrel they "found" bones in on SA's property? Or is this a whole new barrel?

A: Same barrel.

Q: Do you know where the missing 60% of the body is located?

A: We believe that it was disposed of at the smelter.

Q: Do you think the Colborn had anything to do with moving the RAV4 any longer? Also do you think Lenk planted the key?

A: It doesn't matter; the RAV4 and the key were planted to frame Steven Avery.

Q: Do we know if Bobby or ST ever interacted with TH prior to 10/31? Meaning is it possible that Bobby had his eye on her for a while before she was killed?

A: Yes.

Q: Any indications as to what the suspects motive was? Did he want Steven back in prison?

A: Motive was rage fueled by rejection.

Q: If the suspect confessed officially, how quickly could Steve/Brendan be released?

A: The confession would have to be corroborated. It's impossible to know how long it would take.

Q: Have your traced who changed the battery or owned the battery that was put in her car?

A: Yes.

Q: If Bobby pursued Theresa - how come nobody knew and stepped forward during the trial?

A: Bobby was the State's star witness.

Q: Are you now ruling out the ex BF as a suspect? If so, what's the explanation for him having TH's handwritten day planner?

A: A Denny suspect can be involved in the crime or the coverup, so we have not ruled him out.

Q: Hadn’t TH taken photos for the Avery’s/Dassey’s previously? Why would she need to call for an address/directions?

A: She was only given the Dassey phone number and not the ASY address. Because she did not know the Dasseys, she left a voicemail asking for directions.

Q: Would Bobby have hung the deer in his garage to conceal TH blood, or is it likely that she was dismembered elsewhere?

A: Bobby's story is inconsistent as to when he hung the deer, making it highly suspicious that he had an ulterior motive for hanging it.

Q: If the Dassey garage gets tested, and TH was ever in there....do you think it would still be possible to find traces of blood in there?

A: Of course. DNA lasts for years and blood is very difficult to clean up.

Q: Has elections changed The way you are approaching this case?

A: No, but it may change the outcome of the case.

Q: I completely agree with you. What would Scott's motivation be in helping Bobby? From what I've read they didn't have a close relationship. Why would he get himself involved?

A: Wrong. They were close.

Q: Do we know why TH pulled her car over after she left the ASY?

A: The perpetrator induced her to pull her car over.

Q: Are we sure it was the Rav4 seen leaving at 3:45? This was Blaine's account of what happened, but he now says it wasn't the Rav (as I understand)

A: We have two more witnesses that confirm.

Q: Bobby is now married with children, living a seemingly normal life since Teresa's murder. Are you aware of anything that suggests that he still fits that profile?

A: That's irrelevant. Most serial killers are married with children, living normal lives

 

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https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/steven-avery-kathleen-zellner-accuse-prosecution-destroy-evidence-795080/

 

Quote

Attorney Kathleen Zellner has filed a new letter with the Wisconsin Court of Appeals on behalf of her client, Steven Avery, accusing the Attorney General’s Office of “trying to deceive” her and the Court about the status of key forensic evidence in the Making a Murderer case. Zellner’s letter, submitted on February 13th, is actually her second letter to the court in as many days; both letters supplement a January 24th motion that accused prosecutors of violating state law and Avery’s constitutional rights by destroying evidence. Zellner tells Rolling Stone that she has since learned that a key piece of evidence — suspected human pelvic bone fragments, which could exonerate her client — may have been destroyed as well. And, she says, prosecutors are “obstructing” her efforts to find out.

According to a newly discovered police report and updated evidence control ledgers, on September 20th, 2011, “human bone” fragments recovered during the investigation were removed from the Calumet County Sheriff’s Department’s evidence control unit. They were transferred to a local funeral home, which then “returned” the bones to the family of murder victim Teresa Halbach.

According to an affidavit from Avery’s former appellate attorney Suzanne Hagopian, the State never informed defense counsel of its intention to effectively “destroy” key case evidence by giving it to the victim’s family. Wisconsin law requires law enforcement to preserve “any biological material” and “physical evidence” until the convicted defendant has been discharged from prison. 

Calumet County Sheriff’s Department Deputy Jeremy Hawkins states in the 2011 police report that Sgt. Investigator Mark Wiegart, and attorneys Thomas Fallon and Norm Gahn, were involved in removing the bones from evidence control. 

The September 20th, 2011 police report, which Zellner says she received in December from an anonymous third-party, has exposed a lot more than just a violation of state law. A thorough assessment of updated evidence control ledgers and crime lab unit reports (attached as exhibits to her four most recent court filings and reviewed by Rolling Stone) indicates that the “human bones” recovered during the investigation were more plentiful than had ever been conveyed to the defense. And many of the bones that were returned to the Halbach family in 2011 were collected from locations that prosecutors claimed had nothing to do with her murder.

“[Avery’s trial attorney] Jerry Buting even said, if her body parts are over in the quarry, then Steven Avery’s innocent because the prosecution said she never left the property,” Zellner says. “Plus, he’s not going to bring the bones from the quarry and plant them in his burn pit!”

Zellner also believes that by destroying the bones, the State not only violated their own statute, they’ve also denied Avery his constitutional right to due process according to Arizona v. Youngblood. The 1988 Supreme Court decision requires proof that the State acted in “bad faith” by destroying or losing evidence — it’s a very difficult standard to meet, but Zellner believes this case would qualify. Her January 24th motion asks for the case be remanded back to the Circuit Court so it can address these claims, both of which would all but require the court to overturn Avery’s conviction.

Also, one of the prosecutors accidentally left a voice mail for Zellner, thinking it was one of his colleagues, advising him to not respond to Zellner until they get a chance to see if the pelvic bone is still there.  

Crazy. Thats probably an over-turning of the case right there.

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