TBURGESS

MB failed for half a season in Wpg before they MO hired him and MB made Anthony freakin Calvillo look like he was done. We kept him for continuity after 1.5 years of failure so Willy didn't have to learn another offense? It would have been significantly better to have Willy learn an offense where he didn't take a huge beating game in and game out. Might/Likely saved our season last year. Figuring out that Tracey wasn't going to get the job done after 1 season might have saved our last season too. That's a big part of O'Shea's job to know what's working and what isn't and to make the tough decisions. He has made the tough decisions...He has fired three coaches..what else to you want him to do...resign? I'd want him to know that MB wasn't a good choice in the first place. I'd want him to at the very least fire MB after year 1 when it was obvious to pretty much everyone that he wasn't doing a good job. I'd want him to get rid of Tracey after year 1, not half way through year 2. I'd want him not to hire Etch in the first place. He's paid to make the right decisions and he hasn't made many. Oh....so it's not just that he has to make the hard decisions...he has to make them on your schedule...with the benefit of hindsight! No... I want him to make good decisions in the the first place with the benefit of foresight! How did I know that was going to be your answer! Now it's good decisions not hard decisions, and yes everyone in the league makes perfect decisions with the benefit of foresight...and card reading! We pay him to make good decisions. He hasn't. No one's perfect so no, I don't expect perfect. I'd give him a bad hire or two, but he had 3 bad coordinator hires out of 3 in the first year alone and that doesn't count the players he hired like Kuale and Romby. I didn't see any other teams wanting to hire Etch or MB or Tracey because their HC's knew better in the first place. If their HC's knew, O'Shea should have known too.

Now we're arguing about what the quote really means? No, I don't believe that players should have the right to choose their boss and make no mistake about it, the OC is Willy's boss. What next? Should the O lineman vote on who their coach is? The RB's? The receivers? The whole offense should get a thumbs up or thumbs down vote on the OC? The whole team gets a thumbs up/down on the HC (With the coaches votes thrown in)? Then hold a vote for GM with everyone involved. Nope. I don't think so. Maybe Burris or Ray who've been around forever and have played at a high level, but Willy? Ask his opinion. Sure. Thumbs up or down? Not if the team is being run properly.

From the original post. That's different than his 'opinion would be considered'. O'Shea and Walters should be making the decisions, not Willy or any other player for that matter.

You don't think the starting qb should be heard before hiring an oc? The team should be run by management, not by the players. Asking Willy for his opinion of coaches he's worked under is fine. Asking his opinion of coaches he hasn't worked under... not so much. Giving him a yay or nay? Nope. You act like it's Willy's choice alone. They'll ask for his opinion - As they should since he's the franchise QB, but he certainly won't be the one making the decision. He's worked under Cortez, so he'll know obviously if that's an offence he likes or not. If your quarterback doesn't feel comfortable running a certain offence, that tends to pose a bit of a problem. But now of course, TBurg says "YOUR FRANCHISE QB SHOULD BE ABLE TO RUN ANY OFFENSE!! IF HE CAN'T RUN A PROPER OFFENSE, THEN GET A NEW QB!!11!" IT'S DECEMBER 3RD!!! WHY HAVEN'T WE HIRED ANYONE YET??!! THIS IS A COLOSSAL FAILURE!!! THE OLD BOYS CLUB IS MEDDLING!!! When we hire someone we both involve the people the potential hire would work with and check previous references. Willy is the equivalent of both. Yes, facepalm emoji's all around. So Cortez...I recall "the word" was that he can be pretty difficult to work with personality-wise, but why point that out when someone will just say "5 cups"? No, I didn't say either thing. It would be incredibly stupid to hire an OC whose offense needs a QB with skills that Willy doesn't have. Even our current management wouldn't do that. That being said Willy shouldn't have a choice in OC. He's been a starting CFL QB for less than a year and a half and he liked MB so his opinion on OC's is highly suspect to start with. The choice of OC should come down to who's the best available guy for the job. Someone who can teach Willy to be a better QB is way better than someone who Willy likes.

You don't think the starting qb should be heard before hiring an oc? The team should be run by management, not by the players. Asking Willy for his opinion of coaches he's worked under is fine. Asking his opinion of coaches he hasn't worked under... not so much. Giving him a yay or nay? Nope.

Willy gets a yay or nay? Where's the facepalm emoji?

MB failed for half a season in Wpg before they MO hired him and MB made Anthony freakin Calvillo look like he was done. We kept him for continuity after 1.5 years of failure so Willy didn't have to learn another offense? It would have been significantly better to have Willy learn an offense where he didn't take a huge beating game in and game out. Might/Likely saved our season last year. Figuring out that Tracey wasn't going to get the job done after 1 season might have saved our last season too. That's a big part of O'Shea's job to know what's working and what isn't and to make the tough decisions. He has made the tough decisions...He has fired three coaches..what else to you want him to do...resign? I'd want him to know that MB wasn't a good choice in the first place. I'd want him to at the very least fire MB after year 1 when it was obvious to pretty much everyone that he wasn't doing a good job. I'd want him to get rid of Tracey after year 1, not half way through year 2. I'd want him not to hire Etch in the first place. He's paid to make the right decisions and he hasn't made many. Oh....so it's not just that he has to make the hard decisions...he has to make them on your schedule...with the benefit of hindsight! No... I want him to make good decisions in the the first place with the benefit of foresight!

Even I don't think it's the Bombers fault if other teams won't give permission for us to talk to their coaches.

MB failed for half a season in Wpg before they MO hired him and MB made Anthony freakin Calvillo look like he was done. We kept him for continuity after 1.5 years of failure so Willy didn't have to learn another offense? It would have been significantly better to have Willy learn an offense where he didn't take a huge beating game in and game out. Might/Likely saved our season last year. Figuring out that Tracey wasn't going to get the job done after 1 season might have saved our last season too. That's a big part of O'Shea's job to know what's working and what isn't and to make the tough decisions. He has made the tough decisions...He has fired three coaches..what else to you want him to do...resign? I'd want him to know that MB wasn't a good choice in the first place. I'd want him to at the very least fire MB after year 1 when it was obvious to pretty much everyone that he wasn't doing a good job. I'd want him to get rid of Tracey after year 1, not half way through year 2. I'd want him not to hire Etch in the first place. He's paid to make the right decisions and he hasn't made many.

I put most of the troubles of this team on the plate of the talent as opposed to the coaching that's the big difference here. Stats are flawed, you should know that. Use your eyes, you can see the D did enough to win games with any kind of support, but they didn't get it. You and I both know that you can't win with just defence in the CFL. Edmonton had arguably the best D in the league but they still had an offense that was capable of doing something. Hamilton had another of the top defenses but when Collaros went down their winning ways left pretty quick too right? No defense will consistently win games for a team, they might win a few but none will carry an offense as sad sack as the Bombers for more than a handful of games. To me Bellefeuille was the only coach that was flat out terrible and he's gone now. Now it's up to them to hire a good candidate at the position and get some more talent for the existing coaches to work with. Stats are a good starting point, not the be all and end all. Defenses have won lots of games. Edmonton's defense won most of the games that Reilly didn't play in. Hamilton's defense won games for them too and almost won them the eastern playoff. BTW: Hammy lost way more than just Collaros they were down to their 4th string QB by the end of the year. I can't argue that MB is a terrible coach. I blame O'Shea for hiring him in the first place and for not firing him after his first season. I agree that we need to upgrade the talent level on offense. I blame Walters for that because he's the one in charge of providing the talent. To me MB, Tracey and Etch were all terrible coaches and they were all hired by O'Shea. Here is where we disagree, I understand why they opted to keep Bellefool (I disagreed with the move last offseason). They thought they could spend on the OL and improve protection and didn't want to give Willy yet another offense to learn. That's not horrendous logic and better talent is always going to help an offense no matter who the coach is. It didn't work and they fired Bellefool so it's not like they don't see where issues are, they just don't make the instant moves some people want. MB failed for half a season in Wpg before they MO hired him and MB made Anthony freakin Calvillo look like he was done. We kept him for continuity after 1.5 years of failure so Willy didn't have to learn another offense? It would have been significantly better to have Willy learn an offense where he didn't take a huge beating game in and game out. Might/Likely saved our season last year. Figuring out that Tracey wasn't going to get the job done after 1 season might have saved our last season too. That's a big part of O'Shea's job to know what's working and what isn't and to make the tough decisions.

Points by offense: BC - 394, WPG - 309 = 85 more points than us. So, 4pts a game....... or 27% more points or 7th in the league vs 9th or 3rd best points per game in the last half of the season.

Points by offense: BC - 394, WPG - 309 = 85 more points than us.

I put most of the troubles of this team on the plate of the talent as opposed to the coaching that's the big difference here. Stats are flawed, you should know that. Use your eyes, you can see the D did enough to win games with any kind of support, but they didn't get it. You and I both know that you can't win with just defence in the CFL. Edmonton had arguably the best D in the league but they still had an offense that was capable of doing something. Hamilton had another of the top defenses but when Collaros went down their winning ways left pretty quick too right? No defense will consistently win games for a team, they might win a few but none will carry an offense as sad sack as the Bombers for more than a handful of games. To me Bellefeuille was the only coach that was flat out terrible and he's gone now. Now it's up to them to hire a good candidate at the position and get some more talent for the existing coaches to work with. Stats are a good starting point, not the be all and end all. Defenses have won lots of games. Edmonton's defense won most of the games that Reilly didn't play in. Hamilton's defense won games for them too and almost won them the eastern playoff. BTW: Hammy lost way more than just Collaros they were down to their 4th string QB by the end of the year. I can't argue that MB is a terrible coach. I blame O'Shea for hiring him in the first place and for not firing him after his first season. I agree that we need to upgrade the talent level on offense. I blame Walters for that because he's the one in charge of providing the talent. To me MB, Tracey and Etch were all terrible coaches and they were all hired by O'Shea.

I'd take Cortez in a second. BC was behind us in TOP and way ahead in points scored and they were using a backup QB too. Cortez has a great track record over a lot of years too. I don't see him being a Walters/O'Shea type of signing though.

Defense was our strength but not a strength when compared to the other teams. We ranked 8th in most of the big stats. Comparing O'Shea (.333 wins) to Burke (.250 wins) isn't the comparison that we need to do. We need to compare O'Shea to the other HC's in the league right now and he doesn't fair well at all. That's a tired argument that I absolutely do not like. Statistics are like a bikini, what they reveal is tantalizing but what they conceal is vital. Here's what I know from watching the games... there were a hell of a lot of games that were winnable with even an average offensive output, we didn't get that. We were lucky in a lot of games to even get a good quarter out of the O let alone a good game. It's the CFL afterall, sometimes you still have to be able to score your way out of trouble, our team failed to do that. The D wasn't perfect but it was good enough and if they can get some better DL I'd have no trouble seeing them get better without too much trouble. You're comparing O'Shea to one of the worst HC's we've ever had. Sure, he's better than Burke but who cares? Unless he's better than the HC's of the teams ahead of us and that's 7 teams, it won't matter much. You're tired of using stats because they don't work in your favor. I watched the same games and I saw a defense that gave up a ton of yards and a ton of first downs and that wasn't just after they got tired. They couldn't get themselves off the field very often. The best thing they did was force teams into FG's instead of TD's but that wasn't enough for us to beat any of the top 5 teams. Of course we need a better offense and we're all hopeful that a new OC will be able to give that to us but it's not the only problem on the team.

The reality is that we hired inexperienced people so I am willing to give them a chance to learn on the job as long as they're not a complete clusterfuck (which they aren't) Yes I have more patience than you, but being impatient hasn't worked for 25 years why not try a different approach this time? I wasn't calling for O'Shea's or Walters heads at the end of last year because they were rookies who were learning on the job. (I didn't think they should have been hired in the first place, but that's another story.) They weren't rookies this year and they provided even worse results. Walters had a lot of good ideas. I like the way he revamped the scouting department and the way he hired more people, but he didn't staff it properly so it hasn't provided the results it should have. I like the idea of hiring more coaches, but I didn't like the choices. I like the idea of keeping our draft picks, but I don't like his drafting. I like that he's been busy in free agency and is willing to spend to get players to come to Winnipeg, but I don't like that he can't tell who's good and who's bad unless they've already played in the CFL (Ex: QB's/backup). Basically, I like the ideas but the execution isn't there. He's had 2.5 years to improve and I don't see much if any improvement. I liked O'Shea the player and O'Shea the special teams coach. I didn't like him as a rookie HC or as a sophomore for that matter. I think that 2 years is enough to figure out if he has it or not and he's come up way short. It shouldn't take total incompetence in all areas of the job to fire him. Missing the playoffs both years should be enough. This isn't the first time we've given a GM a 3rd year. Joe Mack was given 3 and a half. I remember arguing with you, 17, that he should be fired when we missed the playoffs in 2012. IIRC you said that we needed to bring him back for another year for consistency, so no, we aren't trying something new this time. Were doing what we usually do... Hiring inexperience and then keeping them too long when they aren't working out. The only thing we haven't done yet is extend a losing HC so they won't be a 'lame duck' then pay them to be a TSN coach instead of ours. That could still easily happen in the offseason. Look if Joe Mack hadn't give Tim Burke the head coaching duties he woulda been around a lot longer. O'Shea is a much better coach than Burke. Walters has his work cut out for him I've already said that, but there's really no harm in sticking with these guys for another year. A lot of the problems this past season stem from the offense and given that Willy was out most of the year and they've fired the offensive coordinator who is known to be less than stellar at the job I would suggest that it's not too much of a stretch to think the offense will be improved next season. Defense was our strength but not a strength when compared to the other teams. We ranked 8th in most of the big stats. Comparing O'Shea (.333 wins) to Burke (.250 wins) isn't the comparison that we need to do. We need to compare O'Shea to the other HC's in the league right now and he doesn't fair well at all.

I think this makes BC a better team now that they only have one voice from above. It also explains why Wally wouldn't let other teams talk to his coaching staff. I'll bet Wally wants to keep most of them.

I'd bet that there's a clause in Jones' contract that lets him get out if a better job is offered. As he's an HC, HC/GM would qualify. I read that Wally isn't giving permission to teams to talk to his coaches but Tedford's been getting some inquiries from down south and I'll bet his contract has an out for a better job too.

Looks like it's a done deal and Stubler didn't tell the Stamps until it was a done deal as per Dave Dickenson's video. http://www.stampeders.com/video/index/id/120703

If I had to guess, I'd say Montreal gave him a better offer.

The reality is that we hired inexperienced people so I am willing to give them a chance to learn on the job as long as they're not a complete clusterfuck (which they aren't) Yes I have more patience than you, but being impatient hasn't worked for 25 years why not try a different approach this time? I wasn't calling for O'Shea's or Walters heads at the end of last year because they were rookies who were learning on the job. (I didn't think they should have been hired in the first place, but that's another story.) They weren't rookies this year and they provided even worse results. Walters had a lot of good ideas. I like the way he revamped the scouting department and the way he hired more people, but he didn't staff it properly so it hasn't provided the results it should have. I like the idea of hiring more coaches, but I didn't like the choices. I like the idea of keeping our draft picks, but I don't like his drafting. I like that he's been busy in free agency and is willing to spend to get players to come to Winnipeg, but I don't like that he can't tell who's good and who's bad unless they've already played in the CFL (Ex: QB's/backup). Basically, I like the ideas but the execution isn't there. He's had 2.5 years to improve and I don't see much if any improvement. I liked O'Shea the player and O'Shea the special teams coach. I didn't like him as a rookie HC or as a sophomore for that matter. I think that 2 years is enough to figure out if he has it or not and he's come up way short. It shouldn't take total incompetence in all areas of the job to fire him. Missing the playoffs both years should be enough. This isn't the first time we've given a GM a 3rd year. Joe Mack was given 3 and a half. I remember arguing with you, 17, that he should be fired when we missed the playoffs in 2012. IIRC you said that we needed to bring him back for another year for consistency, so no, we aren't trying something new this time. Were doing what we usually do... Hiring inexperience and then keeping them too long when they aren't working out. The only thing we haven't done yet is extend a losing HC so they won't be a 'lame duck' then pay them to be a TSN coach instead of ours. That could still easily happen in the offseason.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/12/01/calgary-stampeders-defensive-coordinator-rich-stubler-in-talks-with-toronto-argonauts-to-move-east- Calgary Sun has the story too.

Surprise surprise the same people who are constantly nothing but positive see hope where there isn't any. We've already given O'Shea and Walters enough rope to hang themselves, and they did. Now we'll give them one more season to see if both of the first 2 seasons were flukes. The most likely outcome is we will have to make changes mid-season next year and that almost never works out. A new GM and HC would be stepping into a better situation now than Walters and O'Shea did. Mid season next year... not so much. I wouldn't say I'm constantly positive, I can point out things that are wrong, the trouble is when you see everything as being wrong anyone who tells you that not everything is wrong is seen as pumping sunshine and rainbows up everyones ass. You are so certain that you alone are correct in that everything is **** that you won't even entertain the notion that it's not as bad as you think it is. As long as Walters and O'Shea aren't doing damage to the team (which they aren't) I'll give them another year at least to see if we need to be upgrading. Agree to disagree. IMO Walters and O'Shea are damaging the team and we already know what needs to be upgraded. Out of the playoffs for 2 years, not even 2 wins in a row for over a year and a half and not being able to beat any of the top 5 teams this year under these guys is as bad as I think it is. I really don't understand what you see in them. That being said, the decision's been made and we have to live with it or become a fan of a different team. As I'm a lifetime Bomber fan there's only one choice for me. This I disagree with... there's still a long way to go and we need to start winning some game ASAP... to say they're damaging the team is short sighted... 2 years ago no one wanted any part in coming to Winnipeg... not coaches, not players, we had no base of NI talent and our import players were suspect... while we still need to improve at bringing in imports, we definitely have a decent stable of base Canadian now... free agents are willing to sign here, and not necessarily b/c we are the highest bidder... this off-season we'll find out if we can attract some top coaching talent... they're putting us back on the CFL map... hopefully that will actually pay off this year... I still need to see a lot more to be convinced this regime can do more than provide hope... but there is no chance they are actually hurting the team... Mack didn't pursue free agents he thought he could build a team through scouting. That's the biggest reason that we didn't sign many. Walters strongly pursues free agents to make the team better quicker (it hasn't happened) and because our scouting hasn't provided enough good players. How can you make a statement like "not necessarily b/c we are the highest bidder" when you don't know what other teams offered? Pretty much every player is going to say they made the right choice for the right reasons once they've been signed. It will be interesting to see if we can/will attract some top coaching talent. I wouldn't put PLAP into that category and according to Lawless, whose often right, he's our first choice and we're willing to wait to see if he gets other offers. The best coaches will want to be with winners because winning makes you worth more as a coach. We can't offer that. I'd guess that being with a new group trying to turn a team around is preferable to being the last guy in on a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 4 years especially if the new HC has a winning history. Our ability to attract a talented OC will come down to money and a chance at being a HC soon. 17... Having draft picks is great but Walters drafting hasn't been stellar. Long term planning is good but it isn't an excuse for not winning today. It's a balancing act... Good teams (Look as Calgary's drafting for example) plan for tomorrow and win today. You certainly have more patience for losing than I do if you'd only fire folks who aren't doing their jobs if you can get get a known upgrade. As much as I'd like an experienced guy, I'd settle for a new GM like Murphy, who's available BTW, rather than a GM who's already proven he can't do the job. Same goes for the HC spot.

Surprise surprise the same people who are constantly nothing but positive see hope where there isn't any. We've already given O'Shea and Walters enough rope to hang themselves, and they did. Now we'll give them one more season to see if both of the first 2 seasons were flukes. The most likely outcome is we will have to make changes mid-season next year and that almost never works out. A new GM and HC would be stepping into a better situation now than Walters and O'Shea did. Mid season next year... not so much. I wouldn't say I'm constantly positive, I can point out things that are wrong, the trouble is when you see everything as being wrong anyone who tells you that not everything is wrong is seen as pumping sunshine and rainbows up everyones ass. You are so certain that you alone are correct in that everything is **** that you won't even entertain the notion that it's not as bad as you think it is. As long as Walters and O'Shea aren't doing damage to the team (which they aren't) I'll give them another year at least to see if we need to be upgrading. Agree to disagree. IMO Walters and O'Shea are damaging the team and we already know what needs to be upgraded. Out of the playoffs for 2 years, not even 2 wins in a row for over a year and a half and not being able to beat any of the top 5 teams this year under these guys is as bad as I think it is. I really don't understand what you see in them. That being said, the decision's been made and we have to live with it or become a fan of a different team. As I'm a lifetime Bomber fan there's only one choice for me. If there is only one choice for you...why don't you just do a moratorium on bitching and complaining for a while at least. You think that other side should have a moratorium on Sunshine, Rainbows and Unicorns? I don't. What you call bitching and complaining, I call pointing out things that I think are hurting my team. There's been a lot of that lately because we've been horrible. Looking only at the good side or being positive or thinking that we're making all the right moves or being happy about failure don't get us anywhere, but there are those who think being positive is the only way to be a good fan. Both sides want the same thing... The Bombers to be a top team with a realistic chance of not only making the playoffs but winning the whole dang thing. We simply have different opinions on how to get there. Without differing opinions, these forums would whither and die from boredom.

Surprise surprise the same people who are constantly nothing but positive see hope where there isn't any. We've already given O'Shea and Walters enough rope to hang themselves, and they did. Now we'll give them one more season to see if both of the first 2 seasons were flukes. The most likely outcome is we will have to make changes mid-season next year and that almost never works out. A new GM and HC would be stepping into a better situation now than Walters and O'Shea did. Mid season next year... not so much. I wouldn't say I'm constantly positive, I can point out things that are wrong, the trouble is when you see everything as being wrong anyone who tells you that not everything is wrong is seen as pumping sunshine and rainbows up everyones ass. You are so certain that you alone are correct in that everything is **** that you won't even entertain the notion that it's not as bad as you think it is. As long as Walters and O'Shea aren't doing damage to the team (which they aren't) I'll give them another year at least to see if we need to be upgrading. Agree to disagree. IMO Walters and O'Shea are damaging the team and we already know what needs to be upgraded. Out of the playoffs for 2 years, not even 2 wins in a row for over a year and a half and not being able to beat any of the top 5 teams this year under these guys is as bad as I think it is. I really don't understand what you see in them. That being said, the decision's been made and we have to live with it or become a fan of a different team. As I'm a lifetime Bomber fan there's only one choice for me.