I wrote this as a reply in the Playoffs thread but since its off-topic, decided it warranted it's own thread because its a facinating discussion.

 

I love the Wayne vs Mario debate.  Growing up, ofcourse I wasn't a Wayne fan, mostly because he was an Oiler and partially trying to be "cool" and not like the obvious best pick.  I remember debating this kid at school that Brett Hull was better than Wayne and it was clearly futile.  But Mario...wow, what a talent.  Although one wonders if Wayne had Mario's size, what kind of player he would have been.

 

But I maintain that Mario was the best naturally gifted player of all time.  I think Wayne had that magical "vision" and saw everything in slow motion and worked harder.  The fact Mario probably didnt put in 100% effort all the time and grew frustrated with the game and still had the career he did is indicative of his natural talent.  A Mario with Wayne's vision starting his career ten years earlier with no injuries would have been like building a player in a lab. 

 

I still say Mario would have broken Wayne's records:

 

In 1985/1986 Wayne set the single season record for points: 215 points in 80 games (with 52 goals).

 

The same year Mario had 141 points in 79 games (48 goals).

 

In 81/82 Wayne sets the record gor goals at 92 (212 points) in 80 games.

 

But consider:

 

88/89, Mario finishes with 85 goals, 199 points in 76 games which pro-rates out to 90 goals and 210 points over 80 games.

 

92/93 Mario finishes with 69 goals, 161 points in just 60 games after battling back injury AND cancer.  Pro-rates to 95 goals and 216 points.  One could argue that he may have scored nothing in those other 20 games.  But his scoring was so torrid, so prolific, its easy to accept he would have scored at least the same average and would have shattered Wayne's records.

 

Wayne certainly was more consistant.  Even factoring in Mario's injuries and health issues, shortly after he put up his biggest numbers was when he became increasingly frustrated by the transition to hook & hold hockey.

 

Here's a question:  If Wayne and Mario are drafted on the same day (same age etc), playing in either the 1979 (and on) era or today's NHL, with both players being healthy for the bulk of their careers, who do you take first over-all?

 

And when comparing the players, do we delve into their off-ice contributions to hockey?  One on hand, you can point to Wayne going to L.A. as the catalyst for NHL expansion into non-traditional markets (which whether you like it or not, was more of a positive for the NHL as a business) and his role as an ambassador of the game.  Mario was more of a brooding player who spoke out against the NHL and retired in frustration.  But essentially saved the Pens twice (or three times).  While he seemingly stays out of the public eye as far as the NHL goes, he (along with Wayne) tried to avert the work stoppage a few years ago by appealing to the players as a former player/owner.

 

There are examples of great players being struck down in their prime, but is there any greater example of an athlete being robbed of a once-in-a-lifetime career than Mario Lemieux?

 

There are examples of great players being struck down in their prime, but is there any greater example of an athlete being robbed of a once-in-a-lifetime career than Mario Lemieux?

Bobby Orr. No dman would have come close to his numbers if he had stayed healthy.

 

Lemieux was the most talented guy I've ever seen play the game. It was unfair how much better he was than anybody else on the ice. Lemieux on those Oilers teams from the '80s would have been crazy. He made Rob Brown a star...

Rob Brown was an above average AHL/IHL guy who Mario made into a legit NHL minor star.

 

Wayne was around 6 feet and 160 lbs. when he started - I'm sure he never went past 175.... but Wayne had the uncanny ability to use all parts of the ice, he knew how fast opponents could stop 'n start and his office (behind opposition goalies) was the sweetest place in the world to accumulate points. 

 

Mario beats Wayne in one major category. He could dance thru opponents like a hot knife thru butter - using his 6'4", 225 lb. frame and puck retention abilities. One of the best half-court skaters in hockey history for a man of his size. 

 

Neither man had much in the way of defensive abilities - and why would they have to?

Different era than today. It was the years after the 1979 WHA/NHL merger & still before the influx of Euros helped to upgrade the talent in the NHL. Before they came, the NHL had 18 teams & not enough quality Canadian & American players to stock those 18 teams back 35 years ago. So, there was a dip in talent & for a few years in the 80's goal scoring was at an all time high before the Europeans came & coaches cleaned up their end of the ice.

The NHL today is so much tighter defensively now than when Gretzky & Lemieux played. Players weren't as big as they are now, there's not as much skating room, the goalie equipment is better than 30 years ago. Having said that, I still have to go with Gretzky. Gretzky was just  a freak as a hockey player. He'd still score 60 goals in his prime if he played in the NHL today. As I said in another thread, Gretzky had the ability to see the entire ice surface all at once & to anticipate the play. He was deadly passing & scoring goals. He never missed any games. The guy was small but he never really got hurt unlike Mario who had injury & cancer issues.

I like Mario lots but Gretzky is the best player in the history of the game by far.

 

Not only could he score but he also would assist on lots of plays.

 

Gretzky was a very good hockey player, overall... better defensively than mario too.

 

And IMO, Gretzky single handily made hockey relevant in california and regardless of what i think about there being too many teams in california, the reason for that is quite simply put... wayne gretzky.