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FrostyWinnipeg

The Star Wars Thread

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On 12/30/2017 at 11:30 PM, Brandon said:

I couldn't get through all the whining comments from the nerds in this thread.   Dear lord cry babies because they kill off original characters.  I remember reading on here when people cried about TFA being to much like the originals?

As possibly the only non nerd cry baby on here,  I thought the movie was absolutely amazing.   2nd best Star Wars flick after Empire Strikes Back.

From this day forward, every post I read by Brandon- I will picture him as this:

 

giphy.gif

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On 12/19/2017 at 8:52 AM, The Unknown Poster said:

That whole first segment was awful for that reason.  And it was weird hearing them use sort of “modern” comedy and verbiage. The interaction with Hux about waiting on hold, the mom joke. Someone said “we’re toast” at one point to and that verbiage sort of struck me as odd for Star Wars. 

 

one thing that bugged me (yes I sweat the small stuff) during that entire extraneous plot line where Rose (a character that didn't need to be created in the first place) and Finn were letting the horse things go from the stable, Finn said "we have to hurry before the cops get here" of something like that.  "Cops"?  They have that word in Star Wars?  And how would Finn know it, being an ex Storm Trooper.  Are we ever going to find out where Finn came from?  Does anyone care?

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On 12/20/2017 at 6:47 AM, Logan007 said:

When Finn uses the word "cops" when talking about the local security.  It pulled me right out of the movie.

sorry, I hadn't seen this before I posted.  Yup, totally had the same experience.

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On 12/20/2017 at 8:37 PM, JCon said:

Just keep it simple. Go with what makes sense and what does the least damage. 

yup - just go with a plot-line whereby the First Order starts building another Starkiller base that's fully operational and have its power shield be on a forest moon inhabited by cute little furry creatures and boom,  great story line.  

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On 12/31/2017 at 12:01 AM, johnzo said:

Saw it again tonight, liked it even better. 

Thing I caught this time that I missed before was Kylo Ren's offhanded thing about Rey not being able to project herself to him, the effort world kill her.  That's why Luke died /disappeared / whatever at the end ... he used too much Force.

And holy crap those scenes on Krayt were beautiful .. white salt churned to red then scorched to black, the silhouetted walkers, the command ship overhead .. Luke going out to meet them ... just gorgeous.  

Also really liked the parallel between Star Wars and this movie with the Jedi .. both times, the old Jedi sacrifices himself in a distraction so the next generation can get away aboard the Falcon.

The magic of this movie for me is how it showed me these old Star Wars story beats and makes them both familiar and surprising.  It wasn't a comfortable pair of old shoes like TFA was.

 

 

I got that more on the second run as well.  Though it felt less like a foreshadow and more of a line shoe-horned in to explain Luke later.  Snoke also admitted he had been the one connecting Kylo and Rey and providing them both with fake images of the others' future (Im not sure this was very clear though).

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On 1/1/2018 at 1:36 AM, kelownabomberfan said:

one thing that bugged me (yes I sweat the small stuff) during that entire extraneous plot line where Rose (a character that didn't need to be created in the first place) and Finn were letting the horse things go from the stable, Finn said "we have to hurry before the cops get here" of something like that.  "Cops"?  They have that word in Star Wars?  And how would Finn know it, being an ex Storm Trooper.  Are we ever going to find out where Finn came from?  Does anyone care?

Thats one of the awful things about this film. It was fine in TFA to create mystery, it was the first movie of the franchise.  But JJ served up a dish of potential to Rian and he just flipped over the table, stormed out and picked up drive thru.  TLJ is so disjointed, from both the OT AND TFA.  So, I dont expect to ever find out anything about Finn.  And really, that would be okay if it wasnt the same for everyone else too.  Rey?  Nothing.  Snoke?  Nothing.  The guy who somehow got the map to Luke in TFA?  Nothing.  When he did try to give reasons, they werent adequate (like why Luke would turn his back on his friends).

And its not just the character bios.  Rian pushed the characters backwards to create arcs for them in this film.  Poe had a nice arc, but they had to manufacture this storyline about him and Liea to have him become a leader. 

Its what happens when "name" directors take on projects like this.  They always need to put THEIR twist on things, when their responsibility should be to serving the franchise.  Especially in a Saga like this one.  Thats why, for me, TFA works a lot better.  Its not a rehash.  Its a chapter in a Saga where the generational trilogies all play off the same story beats.  Thats the point of it.

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7 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I got that more on the second run as well.  Though it felt less like a foreshadow and more of a line shoe-horned in to explain Luke later.  Snoke also admitted he had been the one connecting Kylo and Rey and providing them both with fake images of the others' future (Im not sure this was very clear though).

I'm suspicious of this. I don't think Snoke was as integral to those connecting. I think he realized how powerful those two were and potentially even more powerful together. I believe he thought he could control them but also feared them.

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On 12/31/2017 at 12:43 PM, 17to85 said:

It's not whining or nerd rage to point out poor writing. That's my big gripe with the movie. Could have been a really good movie but lazy writing held it back and made the first two thirds of the movie pretty lame and it only saved itself to me with a good ending. 

I agree.  Its also silly to imply people that disagree are "nerds".  Firstly because those that the term was meant to imply would wear that proudly.  And secondly, Im not a Star Wars fanboy at all.  I like the movies.  I dont watch the cartoons, dont read comics etc.  Whereas I have a friend who does and he liked TLJ.  I dont think the like/dislike thing is split down the line between casuals and fanboys.  My unscientific poll (and I didnt survey the entire theater like Brandon apparently did), it seems the majority opinion is disappointment.

The few gatherings I've been too since first seeing it, inevitably someone mentions Star Wars and it has been 90% thumbs down from everyone I've talked to.  Those that do like it, sort of like it on its own as a stand alone effort and dont really consider how it works within the Saga. 

I felt the same way about Star Trek Into Darkness - those that liked it, great!  People pointing out legitimate, reasonable and relevant issues should not make someone else enjoy it more or less.  But liking a poor film is sort of the shallow end.  We all have guilty pleasures.  I use Battleship as an example...I really liked it but I know it wasnt a great piece of cinema. 

The Last Jedi wasnt very good as a film.  I liked it more the second time.  I can watch it.  Its watchable, which is different than, say, Attack of the Clones (I have a friend who's favorite Star Wars film is actually AOTC).  But it doesnt change the very rational points people have made about the movie.

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3 minutes ago, JCon said:

I'm suspicious of this. I don't think Snoke was as integral to those connecting. I think he realized how powerful those two were and potentially even more powerful together. I believe he thought he could control them but also feared them.

Thats possible.  But it would be an example of poor writing.  Unless Im mis-remembering.  Snoke stated to Kylo and Rey that it was he who brought them together (I think it was in response to Rey saying she had seen Kylo's future or something).  So the direct implication was Snoke connected them and provided them opposing views of each other's future.  The reason Rey was willing to go was because she had "seen" Kylo's future (she tells Luke this and he replies it wont end the way you think), she tells Kylo this and he replies something about seeing her future too which gives us a confusing opposition until Snoke clears it up.

I think it was meant to show us how powerful Snoke and Luke were that they could both use the Force in that way.  But Rian's cheat was Kylo's throw away line of "you cant be doing this, the effort would kill you" as the tell that using the Force like that was so incredible.  And in retrospect, since it killed Luke but had no apparent harm to Snoke, it shows us how powerful he was.  Which makes his death all the more disappointing.

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3 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Thats possible.  But it would be an example of poor writing.  Unless Im mis-remembering.  Snoke stated to Kylo and Rey that it was he who brought them together (I think it was in response to Rey saying she had seen Kylo's future or something).  So the direct implication was Snoke connected them and provided them opposing views of each other's future.  The reason Rey was willing to go was because she had "seen" Kylo's future (she tells Luke this and he replies it wont end the way you think), she tells Kylo this and he replies something about seeing her future too which gives us a confusing opposition until Snoke clears it up.

I think it was meant to show us how powerful Snoke and Luke were that they could both use the Force in that way.  But Rian's cheat was Kylo's throw away line of "you cant be doing this, the effort would kill you" as the tell that using the Force like that was so incredible.  And in retrospect, since it killed Luke but had no apparent harm to Snoke, it shows us how powerful he was.  Which makes his death all the more disappointing.

I still think that Snoke brought them together originally but once they did, they took over. I think Snoke lost control, which is why he couldn't see Kylo turning on him.

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24 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

.  But JJ served up a dish of potential to Rian and he just flipped over the table, stormed out and picked up drive thru.  TLJ is so disjointed, from both the OT AND TFA.

That is really a big issue with the movie. It feels like it is not connected to what TFA started at all. Just threw out everything that was set up in that film. 

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29 minutes ago, JCon said:

I still think that Snoke brought them together originally but once they did, they took over. I think Snoke lost control, which is why he couldn't see Kylo turning on him.

That was a weird scene, almost played for laughs.  As if JJ created this uber powerful villain and Rian just thumbed his nose at it.  Snoke was so over the top in proclaiming how powerful he was and how he can never be deceived and can see everything Kylo is planning...and then doesnt see it.  Or more accurately, he did see it (he describes it, even using the awkward verbiage "he kills his true enemy") but thinks its Rey he's going to kill...

Just seemed so weird.  Unless Snoke is still alive and it was part of his plan.

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11 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

That was a weird scene, almost played for laughs.  As if JJ created this uber powerful villain and Rian just thumbed his nose at it.  Snoke was so over the top in proclaiming how powerful he was and how he can never be deceived and can see everything Kylo is planning...and then doesnt see it.  Or more accurately, he did see it (he describes it, even using the awkward verbiage "he kills his true enemy") but thinks its Rey he's going to kill...

Just seemed so weird.  Unless Snoke is still alive and it was part of his plan.

So, I've thought about this - the ruse.

I don't see it because a strong force sensitive entity, like Snoke, should create a huge vacuum when they die. Everyone feels it. Unless, he is so strong and masked it?

I guess, at this point, they can (and will write) whatever suits them.

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1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I agree.  Its also silly to imply people that disagree are "nerds".  Firstly because those that the term was meant to imply would wear that proudly.  And secondly, Im not a Star Wars fanboy at all.  I like the movies.  I dont watch the cartoons, dont read comics etc.  Whereas I have a friend who does and he liked TLJ.  I dont think the like/dislike thing is split down the line between casuals and fanboys.  My unscientific poll (and I didnt survey the entire theater like Brandon apparently did), it seems the majority opinion is disappointment.

The few gatherings I've been too since first seeing it, inevitably someone mentions Star Wars and it has been 90% thumbs down from everyone I've talked to.  Those that do like it, sort of like it on its own as a stand alone effort and dont really consider how it works within the Saga. 

I can easily take apart any movie like the folks on here are....  way to much over analyzing on this movie.   

I'm shocked that with your group of friends that 90% have complained.   I've had the complete opposite experience in which at work my nerd friends who are hardcore fanboys loved it and put it right next to ESB.    My experiences with non computer people at work (normal people) have all loved the movie and thought it was way better then the last movie.   

The scores on imdb,  rotten tomatoes,  metacritic have all been really high.     

Also for myself... I remember when The Phantom Menace came out and the negativity that surrounded that movie was off the charts... and still yet more then 10% of the people I spoke with came away enjoying that movie.  

 

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4 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I can easily take apart any movie like the nerds folks on here are....  way to much over analyzing on this movie.   

I'm shocked that with your group of friends that 90% have complained.   I've had the complete opposite experience in which at work my nerd friends who are hardcore fanboys loved it and put it right next to ESB.    My experiences with non computer people at work (normal people) have all loved the movie and thought it was way better then the last movie.   

The scores on imdb,  rotten tomatoes,  metacritic have all been really high.     

Also for myself... I remember when The Phantom Menace came out and the negativity that surrounded that movie was off the charts... and still yet more then 10% of the people I spoke with came away enjoying that movie.  

 

Incredible. Not many people that I've spoken to, who are Star Wars fans, thought this was a good movie or well written.

In fact, even those that are just casual fans thought it was poorly written.

This is the second in the series and the 8th overall. Why wouldn't we expect things to fit together?

And, you can still enjoy watching a movie but agree that it's terrible.

I love Home Alone but know it's a bad, bad movie.

 

And it's 50% on Rotten Tomatoes, so......

Edited by JCon

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Yeah it seems odd to me that Brandon's experience is so different from mine and everyone else I've talked to.  Ive not met one person who loved it.  The best was my "nerd" friend who "liked" it but immediately said "I dont think you will".  So even he completely understands why so many people dislike it.

The idea that the backlash is from fanboys who didnt get what they wanted is silly.  And in fact, if you're making the 8th chapter of a saga and you purposely make a film that disappoints your core fans, then you deserve to be ridiculed.

Liking the movie is fine.  But I havent heard anyone defend the film AND provide reasonable counter points to the criticism.  "Cause you're a nerd" isnt a reasonable response.  In fact, it shows that the criticism is valid.

@JCon Im with you.  The film just doesnt fit.  It was going to be really hard anyway because of the passage of time between ROTJ and TFA but I think JJ did a really good job of setting up the new trilogy.  The Last Jedi was arguably way easier to make since all Rian had to do was continue JJ's obvious story threads.  And he didnt.

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Yeah I've found that the more hardcore a Star Wars fan is, the less they liked the movie.  I am very casual, I have never read a Star Wars book or anything like that, and I thought it was okay... I gave it a 7/10 coming out of the theatre.  I just thought the comedy was lame. 

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7 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Yeah I've found that the more hardcore a Star Wars fan is, the less they liked the movie.  I am very casual, I have never read a Star Wars book or anything like that, and I thought it was okay... I gave it a 7/10 coming out of the theatre.  I just thought the comedy was lame. 

Maybe.  I can see those with more Star Wars knowledge being more annoyed by inconsistencies etc.  My gf, for example, liked it.  And actually liked some of the messages of the film such as Rey not being special and the Force not being something for special people.  And those are messages that work on paper.  But within THIS saga, they sacrifice the larger narrative to support.

My gf's brother strongly disliked it but his kids liked it.  Ofcourse his kids wouldnt have an appreciation for the OT like many of us.  And I hate to think that Disney went into this film with that intent - to sweep away the old.  But there is a sense of that to me.

I guess if Luke Skywalker is an iconic hero to you, then you'd be disappointed in this film.  If he's a background player in the story of Rey and Kylo, you wouldnt be as offended.  For me, the treatment of Luke is the biggest offense and yet, also provides the best part of the movie - his "fake" fight is still awesome and everytime Mark Hamill was on scene was gold.  But it wasnt OUR Luke.  And thats not just a personal emotional thing...the film didnt fit the Saga, Luke being the most obvious example.

When I went to see TFA, I was so worried they would screw it up, mainly because JJ had disappointed me on Star Trek so much.  The moment I knew JJ got it was the very first line seen on screen - Luke Skywalker Has Vanished.  That one line told me that JJ knew Luke WAS the franchise.  Even though he was effectively not even in TFA, the whole film was about him.  To suddenly change that up and have it be revealed that he doesnt matter was too jarring and didnt fit the narrative.  Even the PT was about two things - Anakin becoming Vader and the twins being born.  The narrative of Anakin as the Chosen One, we watched it knowing it was true...but only because of Luke's intervention.

The saga is about Luke.  Period.  If they wanted to expand that (and Kathleen Kennedy herself said this) to be The Skywalker Saga, so be it.  Anakin, Luke and...Kylo?  If so, they REALLY have their work cut out for them in the next film.

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1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I got that more on the second run as well.  Though it felt less like a foreshadow and more of a line shoe-horned in to explain Luke later.  Snoke also admitted he had been the one connecting Kylo and Rey and providing them both with fake images of the others' future (Im not sure this was very clear though).

See that's what I found about a few things.  That things were just shoehorned in.  Like what you said about the whole how Luke died because of doing that force image of himself (which I don't really get since Snoke did it to the two of them multiple times, but had no ill effects.  Maybe it's because his attempts didn't last too long?).  And the whole "they have smaller ships that are faster then ours".  Ok...but you could have blown by them at light speed and come at them from the front.

I'm a hardcore fan and liked it ok, but did not love it.  I think 6/10.  This is no where close to ESB.  The acting was great.  The writing of the characters and how they act, the storyline, the plot holes...were just awful.

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2 hours ago, JCon said:

Incredible. Not many people that I've spoken to, who are Star Wars fans, thought this was a good movie or well written.

In fact, even those that are just casual fans thought it was poorly written.

This is the second in the series and the 8th overall. Why wouldn't we expect things to fit together?

And, you can still enjoy watching a movie but agree that it's terrible.

I love Home Alone but know it's a bad, bad movie.

 

And it's 50% on Rotten Tomatoes, so......

I've been a Star Wars fan since I saw the original in 1977 (I think, might have been later)  in a theatre in downtown Winnipeg.  I thought that this was a lazy effort in terms of writing and an insult to fans.  When I saw that Lawrence Kasdan wasn't involved, I knew there would be trouble.  He's been the real brain behind this entire franchise from day one, or at least since Empire, in my opinion. 

Edited by kelownabomberfan

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You don't need to be some kind of genius to have made that movie good. Hell you can even keep most of the basic points that were in the movie and churned out a good one, but you can not be as lazy as they were with the writing. It's like the only people that they actually tried to have any kind of real character development for were Rey and Kylo, and if that's where they want to focus things that's fine, but then why did we waste so much of the movie with other characters that could have been cut from the movie without anything ever changing? 

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1 hour ago, Logan007 said:

See that's what I found about a few things.  That things were just shoehorned in.  Like what you said about the whole how Luke died because of doing that force image of himself (which I don't really get since Snoke did it to the two of them multiple times, but had no ill effects.  Maybe it's because his attempts didn't last too long?).  And the whole "they have smaller ships that are faster then ours".  Ok...but you could have blown by them at light speed and come at them from the front.

I'm a hardcore fan and liked it ok, but did not love it.  I think 6/10.  This is no where close to ESB.  The acting was great.  The writing of the characters and how they act, the storyline, the plot holes...were just awful.

Yup.  It was a half baked script.  It needed to be put back in the oven.  Im not sure why LucasFilm dropped the ball on this one.  It wasnt long ago we were praising Kennedy for having the guts to fire Directors and make changes if she didnt like the vision.  But she let THIS one go?  Its not like it was a great story but we dont like it...as you mention, plot holes and goody sub plots (I love Del Toro but the whole casino plot should have been cut).

47 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

I've been a Star Wars fan since I saw the original in 1977 (I think, might have been later)  in a theatre in downtown Winnipeg.  I thought that this was a lazy effort in terms of writing and an insult to fans.  When I saw that Lawrence Kasdan wasn't involved, I knew there would be trouble.  He's been the real brain behind this entire franchise from day one, in my opinion. 

I said the exact same thing to someone last week.  They NEED Kasdan so badly.  And we'll know soon enough as he wrote the Han Solo film (along with his son).  If its good, especially after its issues, they should turn the whole thing over to the Kasdans. 

2 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

You don't need to be some kind of genius to have made that movie good. Hell you can even keep most of the basic points that were in the movie and churned out a good one, but you can not be as lazy as they were with the writing. It's like the only people that they actually tried to have any kind of real character development for were Rey and Kylo, and if that's where they want to focus things that's fine, but then why did we waste so much of the movie with other characters that could have been cut from the movie without anything ever changing? 

Yeah, there are the bones of a good film. 

I like the complicated depth to Kylo.  A bad guy who is pulled to the light.  I like it.  BUT...in making Kylo complicated they give us an angry, frustrated character who is more like Anakin than Luke or Han.  And thats totally fine...in fact, I really dig it.  I like that he has temper tantrums.  It speaks to the greater idea of what happens when you take children and try to teach them these pseudo religious martial arts.  No wonder he's a petulant brat.  But in serving that story, you rightly show us a character who isnt as powerful as he wants to be.  Part of his issue is he is forever in the shadow of Vader and Han and Luke.  Rey beats him in TFA.  Kylo is not a great Jedi.

And that works.  But not as THE bad guy.  Which is why Snoke is there.  Snoke allows them to create a more nuanced Kylo.  And thats why killing Snoke undermines everything.  Because either the next film is a showdown between the whiney, petulant, not that powerful Dark Side user against the untrained, Mary Sue-ish Light Side user.  And thats not very appealing.  OR, they have to TELL US that Kylo is suddenly super strong and a bigger threat than Palps, Vader and Snoke.  When everything we've seen shows us thats not the case.

Like the scroll for IX has to include "Kylo Ren has now become the most powerful Dark Side user of all time".  They have to just tell us that to add threat to the story.

Rey now being just another nobody that has the force just like a million other people...again, a weak choice.  If she's a Skywalker, maybe its a rehash.  I get the messaging that Disney went with, that Star Wars and the Force are not just for Skywalkers.  But how many kids want to be "A nobody from a junk planet".  They all want to be Luke Skywalker.  So Rey should have been a Skywalker.  Making her a Kenobi or even related to Palps were better ideas than nobody.  "Nobody" isnt turning the idea of Star Wars on its ear like they want to claim.  Its doing nothing.  The easy choice was making her Luke's daughter or Han & Leia's daughter.  The risky choice was Kenobi or Palps.  They chose neither and with "meh, we cant think of anything cool so meh".

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35 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I like the complicated depth to Kylo.  A bad guy who is pulled to the light.  I like it.  BUT...in making Kylo complicated they give us an angry, frustrated character who is more like Anakin than Luke or Han.  And thats totally fine...in fact, I really dig it.  I like that he has temper tantrums.  It speaks to the greater idea of what happens when you take children and try to teach them these pseudo religious martial arts.

I agree with everything you said except this.  All Jedi were taught the same thing and only a handful turned from it, and then, only 2 had temper tantrums.

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3 minutes ago, Logan007 said:

I agree with everything you said except this.  All Jedi were taught the same thing and only a handful turned from it, and then, only 2 had temper tantrums.

Yes, which adds to Kylo.  Although I suppose you're right in that the removing of children for teaching never seemed to have a negative result before.  So maybe that doesnt work.  Kylo's back story would be really interesting because he sure seems to have daddy issues.

Kylo being so much like Anakin is nicely done.  Rey being a Solo as well would have also been nice so that the love story of Han and Leia wasnt a complete failure.

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